Logo, I’m going to try to cut to the chase in this, ‘cause if I know your history of past responses, you tend to shy away from long drawn-out exchanges. (Perhaps for time constraint reasons).
I’m trying to steer clear of a point-by-point, tit-for-tat exchange. Yes, this is a long post, but most of it Lds sources...excerpts...and it all centers on just one area.
I’m usually glad to do that kind of a dialogue; but I’m not out for “winning the argument” here. And I think talk show host Dennis Prager is right on when he says that when people disagree, we should seek clarification foremost, and worry much less about persuasion.
And whenever possible, I try to integrate God’s Word – and let God speak for Himself – and do the “persuading.” In the case of this post, I cite plenty of Mormon sources to clearly show you, "No, I have not referenced any 'false dichotomy' -- and 'No, I have not built any 'straw men.'"
Now it might be a bit strange for me to say ”when people disagree” when you spent this post on the surface agreeing a lot with me. But the very heart of your response – which I pinpointed right at the top of this response – one built around the heart of my comment – doesn’t “sit right.”
Now I’m not saying you personally don’t believe what you just said. Perhaps you do. Perhaps because you may read & embrace more of the Bible than other Mormons, you’ve come to see things a bit distinctly. But I have to ask you how you can seriously maintain as what you believe here represents Mormon teaching?
You took issue with my statement that Mormons believe that ”'eternal life' = eternal progression and celestial heaven and becoming heirs. But you're telling me eternal life is now? How can that be?" -- that this is somehow a ”straw man” or a “false dichotomy.”
In light of the following statements of doctrine by numerous Lds authorities, how dare can you say that what I said is either a ”straw man” or a ”false dichotomy”???
What the following statements show:
(1) To Mormons, eternal life = exaltation
(2) Exaltation = becoming a god
(3) This occurs only in the celestial degree of the Kingdom...which is a post-death occurrence [this therefore militates vs. my KEY POINT that an eternal life relationship isn't contingent upon a jumpstart of death]
(4) Only this category of people get to live in God's presence forever...all others are shut out from an eternal life relationship with Heavenly Father
(5) By becoming so-called gods, Mormons will have "all knowledge...all wisdom...all power...becoming creators like God."
(6) The only way to be exalted is to keep all the commandments, all the Mormon endowments, Mormon covenants, and Mormon temple rituals, and it's only available to Mormon married couples. This is all merit-based stuff -- and one of the quotes below even uses that term of "merit". The gospel is reduced to a series of laws to obey. It's not so much about what Jesus has done; but about what you have to do.
(7) All of the above is clearly distinguished between what supposedly happens to non-Mormons, which is described as immortality with a resurrected body -- but NOT living in the presence of Heavenly Father forever...THAT is no "salvation" at all to Christians...to be away from His presence is either an earth-like eternity or even hell-like.
”Eternal life is a term which always means ‘exaltation,’ when used in the Scriptures (John 3:15; Romans 6:23; 1 John 1:2; 2 Nephi 2:28; D&C 5:22; 18:8; 131:5; 138:51; Moses 1:39).” (David R. Ridges, Mormon Beliefs and Doctrines Made Easier, p. 88) [Note: With NONE of these passages does it share that “eternal life” – biblically defined – is “exaltation” – Mormon-defined! D&C 5:22 & 18:8 talk about keeping all the commandments – but which Mormons do that? The Bible & the Book of Mormon don’t even mention the Mormon version of “exaltation” – that man becomes a god!]
Sub-title: “WHAT IS EXALTATION? Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life that God lives.” (Gospel Principles, put out by Lds church, older 1970s version, p. 289)
”Exaltation is a synonym for eternal life. Exaltation comes only to those who inherit the highest degree within the celestial kingdom…it consists in the continuation of the family unit throughout eternity; it is the type of life that is lived by our Heavenly Father.” (Daniel H. Ludlow, A Companion to Your Study of the Doctrines and Covenants, 2:85)
“Eternal life is living with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ in the celestial kingdom. This blessing—which is also called exaltation—comes only to those who keep the commandments and make the necessary covenants.” (Preparing for Exaltation Teacher’s Manual, 1998, p. 4)
“Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge, and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.” (Gospel Principles, 1997, p. 302)
“Eternal life…In fact…means exaltation. He who receives the greatest portion of eternal life becomes a God.” (Milton R. Hunter, an LDS Seventy, The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 11)
”Exaltation means godhood, creatorship. ‘As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 53)
“Exaltation is the greatest of all the gifts and attainments possible. It is available only in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom and is reserved for members of the Church of the Firstborn. This exalted status, called eternal life, is available to be received by a man and a wife. It means not only living in God’s presence, but receiving power to do as God does, including the power to bear children after the resurrection.” (Encylopedia of Mormonism, 2:479)
“…resurrection alone does not qualify us for eternal life in the presence of God…we need His grace to purify and perfect us ‘after all we can do’ (2 Nephi 25:23).” (Truth to the Faith: A Gospel Reference, Intellectual Reserve, 2004, p. 77)
Each of us has been sent to earth by our Heavenly Father to merit eternal life” (Lds apostle Robert D. Hales, “Personal Revelation: The Teachings and Examples of the Prophets,” Ensign (Conference Edition), Nov. 1985, p. 20)
”Immortality is to live forever as a resurrected being. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, everyone will receive this gift. Eternal life, or exaltation, is to inherit a place in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, where we will live in God’s presence and continue as families.” (Truth to the Faith: A Gospel Reference, Intellectual Reserve, 2004, p. 52)
“…immortality is to live forever in the resurrected state, and by the grace of God all men will gain this unending continuance of life. But ONLY THOSE who obey the fullness of the gospel law will inherit eternal life. (D&C 29:43-44)…it is the kind, status, type, and quality of life that God himself enjoys. Thus those who gain eternal life receive exaltation; they are sons of God, joint-heirs with Christ…they overcome all things, have all power, and receive the fullness of the Father. They are gods.” (McConkie, MORMON DOCTRINE, p. 237, 1979 ed.)
[NOTE: Of course, McConkie cites D&C 29:43-44…but these verses say no such thing…v. 43 actually says that ”immortality unto eternal life” is given to ”as many as would BELIEVE”…’shifty’ McConkie…trying to pull a rabbit when no hat exists]
“’Eternal life’ is a higher state than immortality alone and means to live forever in a resurrected condition in the presence of God, and to become like God…Eternal life is exaltation into the type and quality of life that God lives. Receiving eternal life is conditional, predicated upon obedience to the fullness of gospel law and ordinances (D&C 29:43-44; 130:20-21). It requires voluntary obedience to all of the ordinances and principles of the gospel…continuing through…the covenants of the Endowment and marriage in the temple…” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 2:677-678)
“The…gift of eternal life…is conditional. In order to qualify, one must deny oneself of ungodliness and honor the ordinance and covenants of the temple.” (Lds apostle Russell M. Nelson, “Divine Love,” Ensign, Feb. 2003, p. 24)
So, to wrap this up…Logo, if you believe more biblically than what is stated above by Lds authorities…well, mind you, I'm not asking you to give that up. But if that’s the case – a big “if” – then your posturing doesn't match Lds doctrine.
The question seems to be, When does eternal life begin? Is it a state that one attains only in the far future, or can it be obtained here and now?
I believe both alternatives are consistent with scripture; to suggest otherwise is to pose a false dichotomy.
You have cited John 3:36 and John 5:24 to support the idea that eternal life is something that can be obtained here and now. I agree, and would add John 17:3:
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (John 17:3)You suggested that to know God is to have a personal relationship with him; I agreed.
But how can we have a personal relationship with the Father and the Son, whom we cannot see? The answer, of course, is that the Holy Spirit makes it possible:
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.Note that the Father sends the Holy Ghost to those who love Jesus Christ and keep His commandments.22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:21-26)
So yes, eternal life, defined as a relationship with God, is available in here and now to those who love and obey God.
However, there is more, as I hope to show in a future post.