Orthodox and Catholic Bond Deepens: Will the Two Lungs of the Church Breathe Together Again?

First, I must lay all my cards on the table. I long for the full communion of the Orthodox and Catholic Church. I pray daily for the full communion of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. I do so because I believe it is the will of God that "All May be One" (John 17: 21). I also believe that the healing of the division between the two churches would unleash a profound renewal of the entire Church at the dawn of what I believe is a new missionary age. I believe that the gifts found in the whole Church will enrich both East and West and assist us in the mission which we must face together in our One Lord.

I long for this full communion because I believe that as the West implodes under the fierce ravages of what Pope Benedict XVI properly called a "Dictatorship of Relativism" it is only the real humanism found in the fullness of truth revealed in Jesus Christ which can save the West from rushing over a cliff to its own demise. The West needs the Church to once again become its soul in this age which has lost its moral compass.

I long for this full communion because, as a "revert", one who returned to my Catholic faith as a young man, I walked the way home by way of the early Church Fathers. Had I not had been baptized a Catholic of the Latin Rite; I might have become an Eastern Christian. As the decades of my life have unfolded, including my theological studies and ordination to the Order of Deacon, my vision and theological viewpoint are profoundly Eastern. So too is my worship. I have long prayed with icons and love the Divine Liturgy. ....

Having *lived* through what Rome actually *does* to Orthodox who choose to keep their liturgy and come into communion with Rome, I can tell you what it’s like. If it isn’t very Christian, it’s not because of me.

I'm sorry to hear that you were badly treated by Rome. It doesn't surprise me though. Just look at what Rome has been doing for the last 40 years to its own Latin Catholics who want to use the old Latin missal. They have also been *thoroughly* mistreated....persecuted might even be an appropriate word just for wanting to use the traditional rite of their own Church's tradition. I don't know what exactly your experience was like with Rome, but the way that the Vatican has dealt with these types of issues in the past supports your complaint. The current Pope seems to want to clean up the shop a bit though so maybe things will change.

By the way, Communists and socialists have managed to infiltrate the Latin Church in less obvious ways. (Just last year a bishop designate was forced to resign for collaborating with the Communists behind the iron curtain). Socialists/Communists' influence has also thoroughly contaminated the Latin Church with the heresy of modernism, so the Orthodox aren't the only Church that is still suffering the scourge of communism. (N.B. Modernism is the belief that doctrines can change and evolve over time...kind of like our "living constitution". Latin Catholics have to watch out when they hear people talking about "living tradition". Its usually code word for Modernism.)

First, in April 1204 the Crusaders invaded, sacked and burned Constantinople. That was one of many events, but one major one that drove a spike through the heart of the Christian Empire of the Middle East. Get your facts straight.

This is true. The Fourth Crusade is one of the most horrible disasters to befall Christendom in the last 1500 years and it should have never happened. Many seem to blame the Catholic Church/Pope for this disaster which doesn't seem entirely fair. Pope Innocent III had explicitly commanded the Crusade not to attack any of the Christian cities of the East under threat of excommunication.

However, IIRC, the Venetian bankers demanded a return on their investment in funding the expedition. The bankers conspired with the military leadership to attack even Catholic cities like Zara to loot their wealth as payment and funds for the expedition. The pope sent a letter excommunicating the crusade, but the papal bull was withheld from the knowledge of the army to prevent the breakup of the crusade. The pope also sent another excommunication letter if the crusader's attacked Constantinople but the crusade leadership/bankers were promised a huge sum of money by a rival claimant to the Byzantine throne, if the crusaders would make him Emperor. The army leadership once again concealed the excommunication threat, the crusaders took the bait and the rest is history.

My mention of the Sack of Constantinople was to provide evidence that 800 years later, the Orthodox are still whining about this event as if the perpetrators are still amongst us . Even the South has gradually lost some of it animosity towards the North but the Orthodox indoctrination of past misdeeds continues to relegate it to second class status. I bet your indoctrination sessions of the youth rival the reeducation camps of communist regimes. Holding on to old grudges mitigates the legitimacy of Orthodoxy to claim to be truly Christian.

Obviously, the unification of the East and West cannot be consummated while these perceived grievances command much of your attention. However, as Catholicism moves away from the hegemony of its Italian heritage and as more positions of leadership are assumed by Asians, South Americans and Africans, your grudges become increasingly irrelevant.Thus, as the Catholic Church becomes more universal/catholic, the Orthodox remain mired in their morass of nationalism. How sad

Having lived the “reunification” I can tell you that it is simply Rome running the show, with all it’s dysfunctional policies. When my group rejoined (1596), priests could be married (they’ve changed that almost everywhere and without discussion), they changed the liturgy (which they claim to love), they changed the theology and inserted as many Latin practices as possible in every parish that didn’t fight back.

Just out of curiosity, which Sui Juris Church had you been part of, and when did the Latinizations take place -- soon after reunification or more recently?

“My mention of the Sack of Constantinople was to provide evidence that 800 years later, the Orthodox are still whining about this event”

Not so. I mentioned it as *a* factor that has *contributed* to the decline of Orthodoxy. The Muslim enslavement of the Balkans was a huge factor and the West’s assistance in that destruction for their own personal gain was also a factor. To ignore the historical background of a situation, regardless of how far back it goes, seems asinine to me.

Many Orthodox nations were enslaved until the 20th Century. The few who were able to free themselves from this yoke (many were simply murdered or removed from their traditional homeland by the Turks), were then attacked by Germany and finally the communists. Orthodoxy has been legally suppressed in its traditional ground for more than half a millennium. It’s like talking to a Turk about the Armenian Genocide.

Why is Orthodoxy weak? I added internal and external reasons. Deleting data and ignoring facts doesn’t seem like a particularly helpful exercise when determining the cause of something.

The rants of the Orthodox about the Rape of Constantinople do little to evoke sympathy from Catholics. For one who attended parochial schools in or near Orthodox neighborhoods I can tell you the kvetching act of the Orthodox concerning the Crusades mainly evokes disdain. We all knew the whiners had not personally suffered at the hands of the Crusaders unless Orthodoxy began preaching the doctrine of reincarnation. No one is disputing Western nations complicity in the persecution of Orthodoxy. What is the problem is the constant whining about this situation especially in confronting Catholics who were not accountable for its existence. We don't reincarnate either.

The Irish were persecuted by the Brits for over 300 years , yet the Catholic church in this country and Australia, controlled by Irish clergy, chose to downplay this salient fact. This downplay is much more efficacious than the Orthodox whine. Thus, It would behoove the Orthodox to reconsider its rants toward the Catholic Church relating to factors occurring many hundreds of years ago. These rants do not bring the desired results. Don't worry , the reconciliation with Catholicism which is truly dreaded by the Orthodox and smother its nationalism will not happen in your lifetime.

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