Avoid Intellectual Suicide: Do Not Interpret the Bible Like a Fundamentalist

Vox Nova ^ | May 14,2 010 | Henry Karlson

[Alamo-Girl]

Your accusation is false. I did not reply to post 282 at all.

Christ instituted the Church, is the head of the Church, and nobody I knows considers it "a god" or sacrifices to it.

Christ is the head of the body, the church.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Colossians 1:15-20

If one fails to discern the body, when he drinks of the cup, he damns himself.

But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. - I Cor 11:28-32

I Corinthians 12 continues to explain what is meant by the body of Christ.

If one believes that only those who are members of his assembly - whether Roman Catholic (Latin Rite), Orthodox, Presbyterian, Baptist, Pentecostal, Methodist, Lutheran, etc. - are members of the body of Christ he has made an idol of his assembly by his great error because the body of Christ is made by God, not man, any man.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. - John 3:5-8

And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? – Acts 11:15-17

God’s Name is Jealous - it doesn’t matter what one prefers over God, he may or may not call it a ‘god’ – but if he loves that thing or that one more than or equal to God, it is an idol to him.

For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God: - Exodus 34:14

And again,

But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. - Matt 16:23-25

No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.- Luke 16:13

If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. - Luke 14:26

Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. - Mark 10:21

There is only One Great Commandment and that is to love God surpassingly above all else. (Matt 22)

The sacrifice of praise belongs to God.

By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name. - Hebrews 13:15

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. – Revelation 4:11

And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. - Luke 19:40

God’s Name is I AM.

[Zionist Conspirator]

You do know what "historical character of Biblical revelation" means, don't you? You're an intelligent person.

And you really didn't see the condemnations of Fundamentalists for rejecting "historical criticism?"

[Iscool]

(1) You can't seriously claim to literally interpret a text you know only through translation - which, when it comes to the study of the Hebrew Scriptures, is the case for about 99.9% of that commuinity.

(2) One also has difficulty literally interpreting a text when one lacks the historical background to contextualize what the text actually says. An historical understanding of the context undergirds any claim to know what the human authors were literally writing about. And that requires criticism.

You completely missed the main element...Clearly you're trusting your intellect and human logic to figure all this out...

You layed it all on higher eductation, whatever that is...

Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

All your confidence is in man's flesh...His intellect...

God said he would preserve His words forever...Either He was telling the truth, or He wasn't...

And now to visit your side, where is this bible that has taken into account the historic perspective...The funny thing is that those who don't believe what the bible says is literal have no clue as to what was written was supposed to represent if it wasn't literal...They don't know what's right...All they claim to know is that something's wrong...

(3) There is, lastly, the fact that this community - while vociferously maintaining that they interpret the Scriptures literally - is happy to allegorize any aspect of the Scriptures that does not square with their theological outlook.

The folks that translated the KJV for example did not write a commentary on the scriptures...They did not determine what was literal and what was not...That was left for those that study what was written by the translators...

[wagglebee]

Is that what Catechism teaches? Or is that Catholic dogma? The Bible says otherwise.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem or is this post just based upon an anti-Catholic agenda?

NOWHERE in the Bible does Jesus Christ utter the phrase, "I am God."

There is no question that He DID say that He is God, but the lack of an exact quote has lead certain Protestant sects to conclude that He was only the Son of God or some form of "lesser" God. They have also misunderstood Scripture to deny the Trinity.

Where you got the idea that the Catholic Church believes that Christ is not God is beyond me. Perhaps it was from comic books.

[MarkBsnr]

Let us see what LDS Scripture teaches about Jesus and men.

D&C 130: 1 When the Savior shall aappear we shall see him as he is. We shall see that he is a bman like ourselves.

D&C 130: 22 The aFather has a bbody of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of cSpirit.

We have several nonBiblical teachings here. One is that both the Father and the Son have fleshly bodies. They do not. The Father never had one - and icons that show the Father are considered heretical and therefore banned - and the Son's body is no more. This is also an indication that the Holy Spirit is not God, but rather a mechanism of the Father and/or the Son. This is highly heretical.

D&C 76: 54 They are they who are the achurch of the bFirstborn. 55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given aall things— 56 They are they who are apriests and bkings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory; 57 And are apriests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of bEnoch, which was after the corder of the Only Begotten Son. 58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are agods, even the bsons of cGod— 59 Wherefore, aall things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

This says that Jesus is merely the Firstborn, and we are exactly as Jesus, only subordinate to Him. As Jesus was born (or created) so are all humans.

D&C 132: 19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and beverlasting covenant, and it is csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s gBook of Life, that he shall commit no hmurder whereby to shed innocent iblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the kseeds forever and ever. 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them. 21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.

This teaches that if I attain this level, I will have my own universe and become a god over it.

I will admit that I cannot find anything about virtual ownership of women by the husbands or eternal pregnancy in the BoM or the D&C, only in the JoD, which seems to have fluctuating levels of authority depending upon the mood of the day.

I find the D&C a rather interesting document, if a tad rambling. My understanding that it is considered LDS Scripture, since I am posting from it from http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/contents, therefore I use it as a source of teaching authority for LDS doctrines in any debates or proofs.

[Alamo-Girl]

NOWHERE in the Bible does Jesus Christ utter the phrase, "I am God."

The Jews seemed to understand that was what Jesus was saying here:

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. - John 8:58-59

From the Law:

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. – Exodus 3:14

And again,

As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground. – John 18:6

God's Name is I AM.

[markomalley]

You do know what "historical character of Biblical revelation" means, don't you? You're an intelligent person.

"I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now…

In addition, we have to keep in mind the historical context within which the writing occurred.

And you really didn't see the condemnations of Fundamentalists for rejecting "historical criticism?"

I don't see a condemnation of anybody in that document (the PBC document). I see a condemnation of fundamentalist interpretation of the Scriptures in the PBC document. There is a difference.

[Iscool]

You seem to making the point that "giving glory" to His Church, of which Christ is the head, is taking glory away from Him. The Church is His body. Giving glory to His Church is giving glory to Him. You don't believe that?

Must be your human logic...You'll never find where God said anything like that...

Think about it...Look at your own body...If you build a house, would your hands and feet get the credit, or your head??? Does one of your hands get the glory for being able to hold a nail while the other hand gets the glory for not smashing your first hand with a hammer??? Of course not...OF course not...Everything comes from the head...

And then, you are making the false assumption that YOUR Church is the Body of Christ...

And no, God did not use YOUR Church to preserve the scripture that I accept as the word of God...

[boatbums]

though they refuse to rethink their groundless devotion to J*sus).

Just for the record...I will glory in the cross of Jesus Christ alone. My devotion to him is by no means groundless but is based upon the unchanging, inerrant Word of God found in the books of Moses and the prophets, fulfilled in the life of Jesus of Nazareth - as recorded in the books of the disciples and Apostles - and confirmed by his resurrection from the dead and ever-present work in the hearts of believers to this day.

I do appreciate your attempt, ZC, to show the contradiction displayed in the OP that clearly was written to ridicule a faith - incompletely and dishonestly, if you ask me - and to insist on its own methods as superior, regardless of the finer implications taken to their ultimate verdict.

[wagglebee]

The Jews seemed to understand that was what Jesus was saying

I am well aware of this. Catholics, Orthodox and nearly all Protestants have ALWAYS believed this.

My point, which many seem to have either not understood or ignored in order to advance an agenda, was that when certain sects misinterpret Scripture to deny that Christ is God or to deny the Holy Trinity, Christians adhere to BASIC CHRISTIAN DOGMA and reject misinterpretation of the Bible.

The statement in the article was that, "For an interpretation of Scripture to be acceptable (which does not mean it is necessarily correct), it must at least conform to the basic dogmatic teachings of the Church." The FACT that so many have been so outraged at me for pointing out that certain sects have used the lack of the phrase, "I am God," to deny His Divinity and lack of the word Trinity to deny the Holy Trinity, has only PROVEN the statement from the article. Christians HAVE demanded adherence to "basic dogmatic teachings" regarding Christ's Divinity and the Holy Trinity.

[MarkBsnr]

It means, clearly, that Protestants can criticize all they want. The Church existed long before them. It continues to teach the same doctrine it always has. And it will continue to exist and teach the truth about the Good News long after the thousands of Protestant denominations have died out.

And that ought to be the lesson of the Reformation. The Church becomes corrupt in some manner. A reaction occurs. Call it a medical reaction to an infection in the body. Eventually the body heals and the decaying matter is passed from the body.

In this case, it has stuck around for 500 years, but note the composition. The majority of the Reformation was hardline Calvinist. Today, only a very small minority of the Protestant Reformation remains Calvinist and is shrinking on a daily basis. Those Protestants who remain Christian are becoming Catholics. Those Catholics who no longer wish to remain Christian are doing so either publically or privately. A FRiend here recently reminded me of a bunch of them including Speaker Pelosi, Vice President Biden, and Representative Kucinich.

[Recovering Ex-hippie]

tHAT IS not WHAT any Catholic would say...

thankfully you left the Church..now quit speaking for it and its members.

Glad to know only YOU have the scriptures that are “true”..whew, for a minute I thought there were many translations of the Bible and many different Books of the Bible.

[Zionist Conspirator]

In addition, we have to keep in mind the historical context within which the writing occurred.

You mean back when people were stone-age savages who didn't know about evolution and foolishly thought the supernatural existed? What else could that statement possibly mean?

And you really didn't see the condemnations of Fundamentalists for rejecting "historical criticism?"

I don't see a condemnation of anybody in that document (the PBC document). I see a condemnation of fundamentalist interpretation of the Scriptures in the PBC document. There is a difference.

You are playing word games, my friend, and you know it. Whether it is condemning "fundamentalists" or the "fundamentalist interpretation," it is condemning them/it because they/it reject higher criticism. Do you wish to continue ignoring this? By all means please continue to ignore this issue altogether. Maybe deep down inside you doubt higher criticism yourself. Gasp! You're a heretic!!! (Or at least an intellectual suicide.)

[markomalley]

I think that ZC has a good point in what he’s saying: if you solely read the Scriptures with absolutely no consideration for apostolic tradition or, for that matter any other pre-existing dogma from the Catholics i.e.,a truly fundamentalist hermeneutic, his conclusions are very reasonable. Not trying to recruit for him, of course, but out is what it is.

[MarkBsnr]

None of these verses, taken by themselves state that Jesus is the Second Person of the Triune God. That was not worked out until Nicea in 325 AD.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Just for the record...I will glory in the cross of Jesus Christ alone.

And I am very sorry.

My devotion to him is by no means groundless but is based upon the unchanging, inerrant Word of God found in the books of Moses and the prophets, fulfilled in the life of Jesus of Nazareth - as recorded in the books of the disciples and Apostles - and confirmed by his resurrection from the dead and ever-present work in the hearts of believers to this day.

You believe in chr*stianity because you believe in the Protestant bible. You believe in the Protestant bible because the Protestant bible says to believe in the Protestant bible. I'm sorry, but your beliefs are built on air.

I do appreciate your attempt, ZC, to show the contradiction displayed in the OP that clearly was written to ridicule a faith - incompletely and dishonestly, if you ask me - and to insist on its own methods as superior, regardless of the finer implications taken to their ultimate verdict.

I assume by "OP" you mean the article at the top of this thread. Yes, it is a cruel, mocking article by a self-hating Southern Baptist who has to prove he is a "good Catholic" by believing in evolution and the documentary hypothesis (funny that illiterate Mayan peasants are accepted just as they are but Southern Baptists have to become evolutionists in order to become Catholic). However, the Catholics are correct in that the written Bible does not interpret itself and required an official, authentic oral interpretive tradition. The thing is, one already existed, and they rejected it in order to invent one and put it in its place. Then they attack Protestants for rejecting the fake oral tradition they invented.

BTW, Catholics believe in chr*stianity because they Catholic Church tells them to. Take my statement above about Protestants and replace "Protestant bible" with "Catholic Church" and you've described the situation perfectly.

[MarkBsnr]

God could have easily raised up rocks to further, protect, publish, etc. His written Word. He actually chose to use a myriad of individuals and groups in thousands of individual and group efforts resulting in the texts we use at present.

He used the Church that Jesus Created and the Holy Spirit Commissioned at Pentecost. The NT was confirmed at a series of Councils around 400 AD. Athenasius compiled a canon built upon Origen's NT, Jerome built upon that, and Augustine presided over the introduction of the complete NT at the Council of Hippo in 393, and confirmed at Hippo and Carthage.

HOLY SPIRIT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE AUTHOR OF GOD’S WORD

In the same way that God dictated the Torah? I don't think so. And neither do John (Revelation) and Luke (Gospel).

[Zionist Conspirator]

I think that ZC has a good point in what he’s saying: if you solely read the Scriptures with absolutely no consideration for apostolic tradition or, for that matter any other pre-existing dogma from the Catholics i.e.,a truly fundamentalist hermeneutic, his conclusions are very reasonable. Not trying to recruit for him, of course, but out is what it is.

I'm sorry, but you are ignoring the issue as well.

The whole point of this argument is modern liberal Protestant Biblical criticism which is implicitly endorsed by the article at the top of the thread and by the PBC in post #43. You are all dancing around this and ignoring to the point that I begin to suspect you all of dishonesty. I must admit it is quite frustrating (which doubtless amuses you).

Furthermore, I do not subscribe to "sola scriptura," as you well know. I am attacking modern liberal criticism and you're defending an oral interpretive tradition. We have no quarrel there other than in the oral interpretive traditions we believe in.

Kindly quote any church father or medievial scholastic who subscribed to modern liberal Protestant Biblical criticism.

I hope you will see fit to call off this dishonesty.

[Zionist Conspirator]

In the same way that God dictated the Torah?

You believe G-d dictated the Torah? B--but what about "historical contexts" and "literary forms?"

Another "intellectual suicide!"

[Lera]

I asked you a question not made a statement.
But since you asked yes I question considering that the Vatican II council seems to think that Catholics worship the same God as the muslims do.