Avoid Intellectual Suicide: Do Not Interpret the Bible Like a Fundamentalist

Vox Nova ^ | May 14,2 010 | Henry Karlson

[metmom]

If a cult is not going to accept the clear teaching and words of Jesus as to His divinity, they are not going to accept it if He said it the way you think would be clearer.

They’re not not accepting Jesus being God because it’s not presented clearly enough in Scripture by Jesus Himself or anyone else for that matter, they’re rejecting it because they don’t WANT to believe it.

[theoldmarine]

OK.. one last time. You posted this long article, started this long thread then disappear.. come back and answer the question, or quit posting...

Here’s the question again..

I didn’t say that you are stupid or ignorant. I said you were ignorant of Church history. Which you seem to prove by failing to address the issues and seeking to say I called you names. The church of the Middle East (Iraq, Syria, Persia, and etc) descended directly from the original Jerusalem church (from the Fundementalist/Pentecostal book of Acts) continued functioning until the time of the later Crusades. The so-called Roman Church was divided when the Roman Empire divided into East and West. So, which one of these three was “the Church”. The Roman Church only gained prominence because of Politics and Secular Power. Jesus has always had His ‘true Church’ of ‘true disciples and believers’ among almost every church. Here’s betting you really can’t answer this post.

[ReneeLynn]

‘The Church’ as in the body of Christ or the ‘The Church’ as in an organized religion? I don’t let anyone interpret Scripture for me. One can look at many sources of interpretations and come up with one’s own conclusions about what is correct, with the aid of prayer and the Holy Spirit.

[allmendream]

Yes, I bring reality to bear when interpreting Scripture, as I think that the reality that God created trumps interpretation of physical reality based upon Scripture.

This is the only mechanism whereby the Christian worldview shed the incorrect notion that scripture demanded or implied that the Earth was the center and that the Sun circled around it.

Without such a mechanism of interpreting Scripture in light of reality, one may as well think that when God speaks of taking the Earth ‘by its four corners’ that the Earth actually HAS four corners.

[cothrige]

That does explain a lot the misapplication of Scripture verses to justify Catholic doctrine. For Roman Catholics, their doctrine is the standard by which everything is measured, not the truth of God's word. That's putting the cart before the horse.

A perfect example of that is the interpretation of the verse which refer to Jesus' brothers and sisters, even to the point of naming His brothers. Since Catholics are so determined to have Mary having been perpetually a virgin, for some unknown reason, then any of the verses referring to Jesus brothers and sisters, must be adjusted to mean something besides what they read to mean.

Allow me please to offer a real world example of why I think your interpretation of these verses fails.

1. My father has a sister. She is my aunt, and she has the same parents as my father.

2. My father's mother gave birth to only one child.

The bible speaks of our Lord's brothers and sisters, but it never says how many children his mother had beyond himself. If you insist that the term "brothers and sisters" must mean that Mary had more children, then you would equally have to insist that my Nana had more than one child too, because my father undoubtedly has a sister. But she did not. My Nana gave birth to only one child.

I think it is very interesting too that one of the verses used to promote this idea that Mary had more children is from Matthew, and in it is said "Is this not the carpenter's son?" This should remind us that these words, and the idea of what a family is, were born out of real life and not theological christological arguments. In real life there are more ways people can be brothers and sisters than having the same biological mother. Yes, Jesus had brothers and sisters, but he was also the carpenter's son.

[metmom]

Jesus had brothers and sisters and they are named.

Matthew 13:54-57 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?" they asked. "Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor."

The question I asked earlier is still unanswered.

Why is it so important to Catholics that Mary had always remained a virgin? What difference would it have made if she hadn't?

[theoldmarine]

Your post... “Allow me please to offer a real world example of why I think your interpretation of these verses fails.

1. My father has a sister. She is my aunt, and she has the same parents as my father.

2. My father’s mother gave birth to only one child. and blah, blah, and blah...”

My reply... you will go to any lengths to defend your Maryolatry. Let’s say she didn’t have other children (let’s just say)... Do you still insist that she is the ‘perpetual virgin’? Scripture plainly says that Joseph didn’t ‘know her’ carnally until after Jesus was born. Why point that out if he ‘never’ knew her? How about the ‘assumption of Mary’. Do you also subscribe to that even though it didn’t become official, but un-biblical, ‘doctrine until the 1950’s? Or the “immaculate conception’ of her who called the Son she was to bear her ‘savior’? Only sinners need a savior.

Well, I was a Catholic (til I knew better), and I still love the tongues speaking, humble woman, who sat with the other 120 believers in the upper room with no place of prominence, barely a mention. It was probably because of her humility and reverence for deity that she was chosen, not because of her ‘sin-lessness’ and ‘near-deity’ that you project upon her. I believe she is immensely insulted by every ‘hail mary’ ever prayed.

[theoldmarine]

You know, I’m still not done with you... Don’t you realize that the ‘false mary’ you ‘venerate’ and call the ‘Queen of Heaven’, the ‘co-mediatrix’, and on, and on.. didn’t even receive a mention in the New Testament or barely in the Anti-Nicene Fathers. She was a late invention of a compromised clergy to ameliorate the hurt feelings of the worshipers of Dianna, Astarte, and etc...

Nothing personal, just can’t help being upset at an organization that having thrown away the truth deludes and deceives so many... This ‘goddess worship’ is just one example. Why does Catholocism need so many apologists if there is nothing to apologize for?

[conservonator]

"you will go to any lengths to defend your Maryolatry." <> Cool, what religion do you have to practice to know the disposition of another heart of hearts? Your powers are almost godlike.

[theoldmarine]

I said she wasn’t mentioned in the New Testament, wrong. She isn’t mentioned in the New Testament outside of the Gospels and the first chapters of Acts where she receives the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

[theoldmarine]

Another ad hominem attack rather than dealing with the issue. Read my posts. I don’t claim to know his heart, just his false doctrine.

[theoldmarine]

Ok... the oldmarine signing off. the ‘conservanator’ (whatever that is) and ‘nyer’ refuse to come back and deal with Scripture and sound arguments. When they are caught out they have no response except to claim to be ‘insulted’. The Word of God is a sword (the sword of the spirit), and Iron sharpens Iron. Don’t bring a rosary to a sword fight.
semper fi

[James C. Bennett]

Don’t bring a rosary to a sword fight.

LOL!

[NYer]

This is one of the best posts on scriptural interpretation that I have seen in a long time.

It's a bit lengthy but, as you commented, an excellent scriptural analysis. Notice the responses from the fundamentalists ;-)

[trisham]

Must we? :)

[Zionist Conspirator]

Thank G-d I'm no longer in the Catholic Church!

Catholics whine about liberals and then attack Funamentalist Protestants for "doctrinal rigidity." Now there's something for you.

BTW, this is anti-Fundamentalist Protestant bigotry. Not the "you're ee-vil and your going to heeellllllll!!!!!!!!!," but the implications that every Biblical Fundamentalist is a semi-retarded, inbred moron.

[NYer]

You posted this long article, started this long thread then disappear.. come back and answer the question, or quit posting...

Apologies ... I posted the thread during lunch break at work and have not been able to get back until now.

The church of the Middle East (Iraq, Syria, Persia, and etc) descended directly from the original Jerusalem church (from the Fundementalist/Pentecostal book of Acts) continued functioning until the time of the later Crusades. The so-called Roman Church was divided when the Roman Empire divided into East and West. So, which one of these three was “the Church”. The Roman Church only gained prominence because of Politics and Secular Power. Jesus has always had His ‘true Church’ of ‘true disciples and believers’ among almost every church. Here’s betting you really can’t answer this post.

The Church began in the East, as you have well noted. Jesus, His mother and the Apostles were all Jews.

Although it is not widely known in our Western world, the Catholic Church is actually a communion of Churches. According to the Constitution on the Church of the Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, the Catholic Church is understood to be "a corporate body of Churches," united with the Pope of Rome, who serves as the guardian of unity (LG, no. 23). At present there are 22 Churches that comprise the Catholic Church. The new Code of Canon Law, promulgated by Pope John Paul II, uses the phrase "autonomous ritual Churches" to describe these various Churches (canon 112). Each Church has its own hierarchy, spirituality, and theological perspective. Because of the particularities of history, there is only one Western Catholic Church, while there are 21 Eastern Catholic Churches. The Western Church, known officially as the Latin Church, is the largest of the Catholic Churches. It is immediately subject to the Roman Pontiff as Patriarch of the West. The Eastern Catholic Churches are each led by a Patriarch, Major Archbishop, or Metropolitan, who governs their Church together with a synod of bishops. Through the Congregation for Oriental Churches, the Roman Pontiff works to assure the health and well-being of the Eastern Catholic Churches.

While this diversity within the one Catholic Church can appear confusing at first, it in no way compromises the Church's unity. In a certain sense, it is a reflection of the mystery of the Trinity. Just as God is three Persons, yet one God, so the Church is 22 Churches, yet one Church.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes this nicely:

"From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God's gifts and the diversity of those who receive them... Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions. The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church's unity" (CCC no. 814).

Although there are 22 Churches, there are only eight "Rites" that are used among them. A Rite is a "liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony," (Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, canon 28). "Rite" best refers to the liturgical and disciplinary traditions used in celebrating the sacraments. Many Eastern Catholic Churches use the same Rite, although they are distinct autonomous Churches. For example, the Ukrainian Catholic Church and the Melkite Catholic Church are distinct Churches with their own hierarchies. Yet they both use the Byzantine Rite.

To learn more about the "two lungs" of the Catholic Church, visit this link:

CATHOLIC RITES AND CHURCHES

The Vatican II Council declared that "all should realize it is of supreme importance to understand, venerate, preserve, and foster the exceedingly rich liturgical and spiritual heritage of the Eastern churches, in order faithfully to preserve the fullness of Christian tradition" (Unitatis Redintegrato, 15).

A Roman rite Catholic may attend any Eastern Catholic Liturgy and fulfill his or her obligations at any Eastern Catholic Parish. A Roman rite Catholic may join any Eastern Catholic Parish and receive any sacrament from an Eastern Catholic priest, since all belong to the Catholic Church as a whole. I am a Roman Catholic practicing my faith at a Maronite Catholic Church. Like the Chaldeans, the Maronites retain Aramaic for the Consecration. It is as close as one comes to being at the Last Supper.

Please freepmail me if you would like more information on the Eastern Catholic Churches.

[trisham]

:)

[Logophile]

I am well aware of this, that is why Mormons don't deny that He is the Son of God, they just deny that He is God.

Not quite. We Mormons do not deny that Jesus Christ is the Son of God or that He is God; we affirm both propositions. (Indeed, we believe that Jesus Christ was the Jehovah of the Old Testament, and that He created the heavens and the earth.)

However, we do not accept traditional Trinitarianism. That is, we believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three separate Beings.

[cothrige]

Jesus had brothers and sisters and they are named.

Matthew 13:54-57 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?" they asked. "Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor."

Yes, the Lord had brothers and sisters, but why does that require that Mary was also their birth mother? My father has a sister, and his mother gave birth to only one child. Consider what that means. If having a brother and sister means that your mother has to have been the mother of all of them then my father's mother had to have given birth to two children. She did not. Brothers and sisters only refers to the relationship between Jesus and these other people, but it doesn't say anything about Mary's relationship to any of them. This verse also explicitly states that the Lord was the carpenter's son, and yet he was not. At least not as you insist he is a brother and sister to these people.