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To: kosta50
Typically, the more grammatically primitve the langue is the more words it requires to express itself. [...] in Serbian one would say "Бик који седи" (the bull who is sitting). Sure, one can still say "седећи бик" (or in Russ. orthograpahy "седетьи бик") but it is "awkward."

I don't see how the sitting bull example illustrates the point you announce about primitive languages. I would not argue the point, -- it is logical that when a synthetic form, such as participle formation, is not there, one would construct phraseological solutions. Latin gives us examples of it. "Agenda" for example means "things that will have to be done"; any shortening of it in English ("to do list") would be idiomatic rather than precise.

Another example is in Horace (book 3 ode 6):

Damnosa quid non inminuit dies?
aetas parentum, peior auis, tulit
nos nequiores, mox daturos
progeniem uitiosiorem.

("What does not wasting time change! The age of our parents, worse than that of our grandsires, has brought us forth more impious still, and we shall produce a more vicious progeny.")

Here the bolded participle packs an entire phrase in English, "them, who will produce".

But in Serbian, the present participle is available; it is just something most speakers choose not to use.

72 posted on 05/29/2010 8:40:01 AM PDT by annalex
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To: annalex
I understand what you are trying to say, Alex, but althoug participles exist in Serbian it is no longer correct to use them in most cases. Such and expression would immediately prompt someone's "стилска коректура," or "correction of style."

It is meet that you should use Latin as a fine example of a highly developed language. similar examples can be found in all liturgical languages besides Latin, such as Greek, Church Slavonic and Hebrew. English, German, etc. are civil languages, somewhere between Cockney type slang and liturgical languages, endowed with some flexibility but not fully.

Modern Serbian is a cockney style dialect, a peasant language elevated to a status of a literary standard, forced to borrow words form left and right, and much more at home with phraseological expressions that with those containing participles.

The Church still uses some of the "archaic" or "outdated" expressions such as блаженопочивши or свјатејши, but that is looked upon as vestige of tradition reserved only for Church terminology.

The First Serbian daily newspapers, Новине Сербске, was printed in тхе city described as "Царствующа Виенна" at the turn of the 18th into 19th century. Today, this expression would be utterly impossible. Instead ne would have to say "Беч (modern name for Vienna taken from Hungarian) који царује", although the participle "царствујушћа" still exists. Rather one would use the adjective Царски Беч.

Likewise, the first provisional Serbian government established following the first Serbian Uprising in 1804 was called Правительствующій Совтеъ. Today, interetsingly, one could still use a participle for Руководећи савет, but if one is to you the word managing rather than leading, one has to use phraseology, as in Савет који управља.

73 posted on 05/29/2010 2:33:39 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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