So, is the Catholic/Orthodox Church the Church that Christ organized or is it an apostate religion?
If it is the Church that Christ organized, then we should all be members of it.
If it isn’t, then there had to be an apostasy?
Dance around those questions all you want and try to distract the reader by attempting to talk about why the Mormon Church is evil.
It boils down to this, either one of the Orthodox Churches is the religion that Christ organized OR there was an apostasy. Those are the only options I can see. Are there more options and what are they? These has nothing to do with Mormons and their beliefs, though I realize that you will attempt to make it so. This has to do whether there was an apostasy or not.
If there wasn’t an apostasy, then why is there a need for the Reformation? The only need for the Reformation would be because there was an apostasy.
Quick! Look over there and away from Mormonism.
I especially love the "distract the reader" part, because I cannot hold a candle to the LDS in doing such, as you have so ably demonstrated, therefore do not even attempt it.
I asked a simple set of questions about reading creeds to understand how the various Christian traditions view the term Catholic and then asked you to explain to me how we can all come together without any discord to share the message of Christ's Redeeming grace if we are not of the same family, how we can respect and accept each others baptisms without issue. These are questions you won't answer because you can't answer them without telling the tell.
So lets, for the sake of the lurkers if nothing else, give you another chance to avoid the issue, a new question to not answer, something I missed before.
You are talking about the "Great Apostasy" but which one. It seems that you are talking about the one that inspired the Protestant reformation some 1500 years after Christ's death with in the context of this particular thread.
However the LDS believe the great apostasy occurred not long after his Ascension (more of the "Christ is a bad HR person" idea I guess) so which one are you thinking of?
If it is the former then again we need not deal with Smith and his vision because the Church "stayed intact" well after the time of the apostasy he is trying to "fix" ergo he is on a false mission. If it is the latter, well since it did not happen we don't have to deal with it. See the real Christ is smart enough to pick folks who can keep his Church going for more than a couple of generations.
For the lurkers understand that Catholic is seen as the universal Church (indeed that is what the word Catholic means, universal), not just the one in Rome, but the body of all those who follow the true Christ, something that has indeed withstood the gates of hell however you see them.
Some feel The Roman Church organization went off the reservation in the middle ages, and in some ways they did from an operational sense, and they feel the Protestants are misguided brothers but still followers of Christ, a very important concept. The Orthodox feel the same way etc. We all see each other as brothers and sister who disagree on a lot of earthly man centric operational issues, something Christ even knew would happen when he told us in his Father's house there are many rooms. In the end be one Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and hold the same core beliefs of his life and mission and follow the same all powerful truine God.
The secret is to find the room you feel most comfortable in here on Earth as long as you follow him.
The real him...
Because there was never a universal apostasy.
Any Protestant church/denomination exists because they believe an apostasy occured in the Christian church sometime since the first Christian generation, else why would there have been needed a Reformation.
Again, "yes" on apostasy; "no" on a universal one.
So, you really have only two choices ejonesie, there was an apostasy and the Church didn’t survive intact because of the apostasy or there wasn’t an apostasy and the RCC is the true Church.
Sorry, Urroner, you know neither "Greek" relevant to this matter, nor have you fully grasped church history.
The Greek word for "church" is "ecclesia" -- meaning "called out ones."
"Ones" = people; flesh-and-blood body of Christ;
an organism; not an organization;
the people of God, not a religious hierarchy & religious structure.
[Just like when Mormons think of "temple," usually the first thing they think of is a building, not the habitat of the Holy Spirit!]
Those are your only logical choices...
No it's not. If there wasn't a 100% apostasy of the people of God, then you've carte blanche ruled out a nuanced middle ground by automatic exclusion, of which you have no biblical or historical basis to do so!
So, is the Catholic/Orthodox Church the Church that Christ organized or is it an apostate religion?
(That's like asking if the large Catholic family on the corner has "apostatized" -- and then projecting whether they have or haven't onto the entire worldwide Catholic population!)
If it is the Church that Christ organized, then we should all be members of it.
Again, the "church" that Christ "organized" is a living body -- an organism. And yes, members like Szonian are grafted onto Him all the time! (The body of Christ is a Living Being...a Him...not simply an "it").
If there wasn’t an apostasy, then why is there a need for the Reformation? The only need for the Reformation would be because there was an apostasy.
Have you seriously spent time reading the Old Testament? There is verse after verse after verse after verse of God coming against His people; warning them; admonishing them; very often judging them in real-time; allowing them to go into exile; contending against His people; etc. etc. etc.
Despite all of that, did God ever completely forego His covenant with Israel??? (NO!!!!) He tried to revive them. He tried to renew them. He tried to revitalize Israel. He tried to reform them. And times it happened; only for them to fall back into both a backslidden and often apostatized lifestyle. But corporate Israel NEVER completely buckled under!
Don't you comprehend that? The same thing was true with the Orthodox and Catholic churches. There was never a time historically that the people of God were ever completely wiped off the faced of earth. (Unlike Mormon claims that it was "destroyed" -- another Lds false prophesy!!!)
God promised there would always be a remnant! In fact, even Mormons teach that! Even Mormons say the apostle John and 3 supposed "Nephite disciples" never died and have wandered the earth all this time. So even Lds technically say there was no "100%" apostasy! What? You don't believe your own hype?
Lds FReepers have come before you 2-3 years ago; citing all of the biblical "prooftexts" where they tried to show some universal apostasy. I answered them twice, verse-by-verse. They could not prove from the Bible that there would be a "universal" apostasy.
In fact, the Holy Ghost expressly said just the opposite through the apostle Paul:
1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times SOME shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils (1 Tim. 4:1)
The Holy Ghost said only SOME would be guilty of apostasy; and He said so "expressly". Who are you, Urroner, to imply that the Holy Ghost was either mistaken, lied, or falsely prophesied??