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Posted on 04/18/2010 9:49:35 PM PDT by Judith Anne
I seriously wonder about some FReepers, sometimes. Any other person accused of a crime would be defended by every FReeper as being innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. I've seen whole threads written by men who have been accused of child abuse by ex-wives out to deny them their visitation rights or to wrest more money out of them. These men are rightly indignant, and furious about the unjust accusations that cannot be proven but are never withdrawn.
Yet where are those FReepers when a PRIEST is accused? Where is the presumption of innocence? Suddenly, every accusation becomes a verdict, and not only the accused but his entire organization and all its adherents are held responsible.
I can only wonder what some of these so-called conservatives (who so faithfully defend the Constitution) would do, if THEY were the ones accused! It is a nightmare for any man -- all of you know how even the accusation stains the man forever, even if it is proven false!
Not only that, many here assert that the problems of 30, 40 and even 50 years ago must be tried in the media TODAY!
Remember the Duke rape case? There are more similarities than differences here. The priests are accused, nifonged, and instead of being defended, they are vilified!
What other man of you could stand under the weight of such an accusation trumpeted by the press, and come out whole? None! And such accusations made, LONG after the statute of limitations has passed, sometimes even after the accused is dead and buried for YEARS -- are YOU one of those who automatically, reflexively, spitefully, and gleefully act as judge, jury, and executioner?
Women! What if it were YOUR HUSBAND, YOUR BROTHER, YOUR FATHER, YOUR UNCLE, YOUR SON who was accused? Wouldn't you want the best defense possible? Wouldn't YOU believe in their innocence? Wouldn't YOU help protect your loved ones as much as possible? And yet, YOU JUDGE THE CHURCH FOR DOING WHAT YOU WOULD DO?
Shame! Vast shame! On all who have sinned against the innocent!
You might be able to audit a distance learning course through Catholic Distance University -- I looked at their catalog and they offer a one credit course called Philosophy for Theology I: Augustine and the Platonic Tradition (May 3 - May 31). They also welcome non-degree seeking students.
So, since I'm fairly confident that you wouldn't be seeking a Masters in Theology, but just an opportunity to expand your knowledge in one little area, that might be an ideal opportunity for you.
Thanks, Mark. I’ll check that out.
LOL, Pastors are human and every sermon isn't a home run!
Exactly the point.
From a slightly more modern source:
8. Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation through which He communicated truth and grace to all. But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element. For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body.(Eph 4:16)
This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(John 21:14) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(Matt 28:18ff) which He erected for all ages as "the pillar and mainstay of the truth".(1 Tim 3:15) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.
Just as Christ carried out the work of redemption in poverty and persecution, so the Church is called to follow the same route that it might communicate the fruits of salvation to men. Christ Jesus, "though He was by nature God . . . emptied Himself, taking the nature of a slave",(Phil. 2:6) and "being rich, became poor"(2 Cor. 8:9) for our sakes. Thus, the Church, although it needs human resources to carry out its mission, is not set up to seek earthly glory, but to proclaim, even by its own example, humility and self-sacrifice. Christ was sent by the Father "to bring good news to the poor, to heal the contrite of heart",(Lk. 4:18) "to seek and to save what was lost".(Lk. 19:10) Similarly, the Church encompasses with love all who are afflicted with human suffering and in the poor and afflicted sees the image of its poor and suffering Founder. It does all it can to relieve their need and in them it strives to serve Christ. While Christ, holy, innocent and undefiled(Heb. 7:26) knew nothing of sin,(2 Cor. 5:21) but came to expiate only the sins of the people,(Cf. Heb. 2:17) the Church, embracing in its bosom sinners, at the same time holy and always in need of being purified, always follows the way of penance and renewal. The Church, "like a stranger in a foreign land, presses forward amid the persecutions of the world and the consolations of God", announcing the cross and death of the Lord until He comes."(Cf. 1 Cor. 11:26) By the power of the risen Lord it is given strength that it might, in patience and in love, overcome its sorrows and its challenges, both within itself and from without, and that it might reveal to the world, faithfully though darkly, the mystery of its Lord until, in the end, it will be manifested in full light.
That view, "Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be, even as where Jesus may be, there is the universal [katholike] Church," still holds today...at least in Catholic circles.
I can't say too much one way or the other about Campbellites. The only ones who I know are some inlaws. I know that my mother-in-law's Sunday School class actually studied the deuteros a couple of years ago.
It is the Catholics and the Catholic Light that elevate the Gospels above the rest of the Bible.
One thing I particularly enjoy is hearing the final Gospel at the end of every Latin Mass (John 1:14). In the very beginning it says, "In principio erat Verbum, et Verbum erat apud Deum, et Deus erat Verbum."
The point being that hearing the very words of the Word when He became flesh (caro factum est) is a spirtual feeding of that Word to our minds, just as Holy Communion is a spiritual feeding of that Word to our bodies. Both are essential...
Beautiful
If you would wander Catholic avenues, we promise not to out you.
“I hope to avoid having FR be so very important as it was to me before.”
I agree.
I keep reminding myself that if I never were to read or post again on this forum no one would, even for a nano-second, remember me or anything I ever said. But my faithful family is and always will be there for me, as I am for them, and it’s their love—for the Lord Jesus and for me-—that keeps me going even when I am running on empty.
That’s where the greatest amount of time and thought are best spent.
BUT-—it’s great to read the thoughts and opinions of my fellow Catholics here, and to benefit from their wisdom.For that, I am grateful and will be here to read and ponder as long as the Lord gives me time for it.
Blessings
ROE
That's not his take on it.
1 Corinthians 7: 7 Indeed, I wish everyone to be as I am, but each has a particular gift from God, 5 one of one kind and one of another. 8 6 Now to the unmarried and to widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do, 9 but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire.
In terms of Judgement of each man, we certainly have adequate verse. In deference to the Reformed, I have place Paul first:
2 Corinthians 5: 10 For we must all appear 7 before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.
Romans 14: 10 Why then do you judge your brother? Or you, why do you look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bend before me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.” 12 So (then) each of us shall give an account of himself (to God).
Revelation 20: 11 9 Next I saw a large white throne and the one who was sitting on it. The earth and the sky fled from his presence and there was no place for them. 12 I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. 10 The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls. 13 The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades 11 gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.
Romans 2: 5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 who will repay everyone according to his works: 3 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. 9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. 10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. 11 4 There is no partiality with God.
Matthew 25: 41 17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 24: 45 26 27 “Who, then, is the faithful and prudent servant, whom the master has put in charge of his household to distribute to them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master on his arrival finds doing so. 47 Amen, I say to you, he will put him in charge of all his property. 48 28 But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is long delayed,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and eat and drink with drunkards, 50 the servant’s master will come on an unexpected day and at an unknown hour 51 and will punish him severely 29 and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.
Matthew 20: 32 His master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to. 33 Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?’ 34 Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. 23 35 24 So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart.”
Matthew 19: 24 19 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, 20 take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 21 26 What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life? 27 22 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.
That sounds dogmatic.
Ummm..like your own parents, maybe? Come on...you forgot the /sarc tag after you said that, right? ;o)
It certainly sounds more dogmatic than pastoral. :-)
Or, even more postively by saying: "Those who have the "gift" of celibacy." :o)
There is no mention of Rome. No mention of Corinth, either. Nor of Galatia. Nor of Phillipi. Nor Colossae. Nor Thessalonia. You know, I don't see Jerusalem in here, or Antioch, either. Why is this? That would be quite an oversight on the Lord's part if the papacy had really been established.
I notice that that oversight has extended to the Reformation as well.
Paul did not put a smiley after his statement. I am convinced that he thought that celibacy was a gift from God, and that everyone ought to aspire to that state. Scripture is certainly quite clear, is it not?
Quite a character, that's for sure. I trust that you are tracing the rather convoluted path that his faith traveled...
Was he the guy who said..."Make me holy Lord...just not yet."?
Apoc 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia…
Never once in my life until now realized that the Roman province of Asia extended as far west as Italy.
The things we learn here.
We wouldn't HAVE any Christians left this long into the future if Paul's preference for celibacy was to be something "everyone ought to aspire to" - no?
We've been here before, I know, but when the entire passage is read IN CONTEXT to the tribulations the early church suffered, you can understand his urging other evangelists to be like him and not be encumbered by responsibilities of family. After things settled down some, he, as well as the other writers of scripture, encouraged leaders of the church to be "husbands of one wife" and to demonstrate their leadership of the church in their having good and decent wives and obedient children. See my point?
Well done, sir. I had overlooked that.
There are many folks even here on FR that believe that Jesus and the Apostles carried the KJV and taught in English out of it. I was lectured once by an old CofC conservative preacher in the context of English-only in the United States to the effect that if English was good enough for Jesus, it was good enough for everyone in the USA.
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