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To: johngrace
In the article He establishes how they see us thus Hebrews 12:1{ “ we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses”

You misread this scripture friend..the greek word for" Witness" here is the word we get the word martyr from..the text is telling us we are to emulate those that have witnessed to US by their lives, not that they are busy watching us

Revalation 8:3-4 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; [4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

Incense always represents prayer. it did so in the Old Testament long before the catholic church decided to tell us who the 'saints' are

Rev 8 3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. 5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

This is speaking of the saints under persecution . These chapters are not about Aunt Mabel needing a car or having a headache. In context, these are the prayers of the living Saints for perseverance in tribulation. All of heaven is watching these events in John's narrative.

John consistently uses Old testament scripture and references in this book to make clear the revelation to the Jews..they would have known scriptures like this one

Lev 16:13 — And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that [is] upon the testimony, that he die not:

Revelation 5:8, the “twenty-four elders” (usually regarded by commentators as dead human beings) “fell down before the Lamb . . . with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Nothing said here about "intercession" . This is after all symbolic, eschatological literature.

perhaps we do well to heed these words from Revelation Rev 20:14“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

58 posted on 04/14/2010 11:19:48 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7

NO! You DON”T GET IT! Thats So off! CLOUD OF WITNESSES OR MATYRS means THEY SEE from HEAVEN NOT FROM EARTH! INTERCESSION is PRAY. THE ELDERS AND ANGELS HAVE ANY TYPE OF PRAY BEFORE THE THE LORD. IF iTS all Symbolic What makes you the judge and jury to say it is not? OH I got it Your the POPE OF YOUR OWN CHURCH!


59 posted on 04/14/2010 11:55:54 AM PDT by johngrace
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