Posted on 04/11/2010 6:09:57 PM PDT by stfassisi
Read your Bible, Dr. E.
Try Job. Heh. You may learn something about how God answers those who compare themselves to Him.
I’m telling you right now: I know no presbyterian who “has the mind of Christ.” No, not one.
Mary was preserved by God Almighty to be sinless, although human. Did some other deity save the presbyterians?
“He who has seen me has seen the Father,” Christ said, declaring that He is God. He preserved His mother before her birth. “Before Abraham was, I am,” said Christ. He died and rose again to save all presbyterians from their sins, but as you pointed out, we can’t, as humans, know that they aren’t all going to hell. But He preserved Mary from any stain, because she is the Ark of the New Covenant, the Queen Mother of the King of Kings.
3:16. All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice:
All scripture...Every part of divine scripture is certainly profitable for all these ends. But, if we would have the whole rule of Christian faith and practice, we must not be content with those Scriptures, which Timothy knew from his infancy, that is, with the Old Testament alone: nor yet with the New Testament, without taking along with it the traditions of the apostles, and the interpretation of the church, to which the apostles delivered both the book, and the true meaning of it.
“communicating with the dead is strictly forbidden (Deuteronomy 18:10)”
18:10. Neither let there be found among you any one that shall expiate his son or daughter, making them to pass through the fire: or that consulteth soothsayers, or observeth dreams and omens, neither let there be any wizard,
18:11. Nor charmer, nor any one that consulteth pythonic spirits, or fortune tellers, or that seeketh the truth from the dead.
Note: “any one that…seeketh the truth from the dead.” It is clear that this refers to attempts to obtain information from the spirits of the dead through their own power, and certainly does not refer to asking other members of the Body of Christ to pray for us. I don’t know why this is so hard for protestants.
“Specifically any example of praying to worm food (It is very offensive to refer to other members of the body of Christ as worm food. Are you really a Christian?) or them praying for us.”
Corinthians
12:11. But all these things, one and the same Spirit worketh, dividing to every one according as he will.
12:12. For as the body is one and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body: So also is Christ.
12:13. For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free: and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink.
12:14. For the body also is not one member, but many.
12:15. If the foot should say: Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body: Is it therefore not of the Body?
12:16. And if the ear should say: Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body: Is it therefore not of the body?
12:17. If the whole body were the eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?
12:18. But now God hath set the members, every one of them, in the body as it hath pleased him.
12:19. And if they all were one member, where would be the body?
12:20. But now there are many members indeed, yet one body.
12:21. And the eye cannot say to the hand: I need not thy help. Nor again the head to the feet: I have no need of you.
12:22. Yea, much, more those that seem to be the more feeble members of the body are more necessary.
12:23. And such as we think to be the less houourable members of the body, about these we put more abundant honour: and those that are our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
12:24. But our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, giving to that which wanted the more abundant honour.
12:25. That there might be no schism in the body: but the members might be mutually careful one for another.
12:26. And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it: or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it.
12:27. Now you are the body of Christ and members of member.
Now, you show me the scripture where it says that members of the body of Christ are severed from that body at their carnal death.
“If I am wrong please straighten me out because I want to get it right, I only ask that you do so using Gods Word and not mans.”
Sola scriptura is not scriptural.
“1) Someone praying for us is not mediating, it is entreating. These are 2 separate things that need to stay very separate. It would seem to me that Catholics want other mediators.”
You seem to be trying to read all kinds of things into the word “mediate.” If we ask another member of the body of Christ to pray for us, it is “entreating” if he is still in his body, but “mediating” if he has returned his soul to God. Sorry, but I can’t detect the slightest scintilla of logic or reason in that.
“2) Saints who have passed on and are no longer with us but are in Christ’s presence are off limits to us according to God’s Word.”
As I showed above, this is not the case. The Bible just doesn’t say that.
I wonder how you get around Matthew Chapter 17.
17:1. And after six days Jesus taketh unto him Peter and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart:
17:2. And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow.
17:3. And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him.
17:4. And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
17:5. And as he was yet speaking, behold a bright cloud overshadowed them. And lo a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye him.
Deuteronomy 18 doesn’t say “For the Lord abhorreth all these things, and for these abominations he will destroy them at thy coming” **unless** it is Jesus who is speaking with members of the body of Christ who have shuffled off this mortal coil.
If it is speaking with saints that God abhors, then Jesus is doing something that God abhors. Is that possible?
Of course not. Ergo, the passage doesn’t refer to legitimate communication with saints in Heaven, such as asking them to pray for us; it refers rather to séances and ungodly things like that in which people attempt to use their own abilities to get information from the spirits of the dead without God’s sanction. Quod erat demonstrandum.
“The RCC infantisizes Jesus Christ in order to elevate His mother to an unseemly, idolatrous position above even God, as if Mary rules the world.”
For your own sake, please, please stop telling these lies. Think about what can result from such malicious false witness, repeated so many times.
The Word of God must be read and understood in its entirety. Far too many attempt to "prove" positions and theories by citing a quip, phrase, or verse out of the context of the entire Scripture. I have seen papers published by the German (Nazi) Protestant Church in which much of Mein Kampf was supported by single out of context verses.
It is disengenuous at best to throw around words without defining them. Necromancy is the practice of calling upon the spirits of the dead to gain special knowledge. The Catholic Church specifically prohibits it.
The Church teaches that those who believe in Christ do not die, but gain eternal life. Prayers of intercession to saints are therefore not necromancy.
And not even a Christian, just some new age cultist with a burning hatred of all things Catholic. Why else would a non-Catholic spend thousands of hours lurking and searching FR for any thread remotely associated with a Catholic topic and then dredge up the same venomous and thoroughly refuted falsehoods over and over and over again?
The communion of saints is the Church. The term "communion of saints" therefore has two closely linked meanings: communion in holy things (sancta)" and "among holy persons (sancti)."
Sancta sancti's! ("God's holy gifts for God's holy people") is proclaimed by the celebrant in most Eastern liturgies during the elevation of the holy Gifts before the distribution of communion. The faithful (sancti) are fed by Christ's holy body and blood (sancta) to grow in the communion of the Holy Spirit (koinonia) and to communicate it to the world.
Since Abraham, intercession - asking on behalf of another has been characteristic of a heart attuned to God's mercy. In the age of the Church, Christian intercession participates in Christ's, as an expression of the communion of saints. In intercession, he who prays looks "not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others," even to the point of praying for those who do him harm. Phil 2:4; cf. Acts 7:60; Lk 23:28, 34.
By this I assume you mean the Two Greatest Commandments and the Eight Beatitudes, right?
An accusation of "revisionism" is pretty funny coming from a Protestant, since Protestantism is all about revisionism.
Everybody’s wrong except Rome.
The book wasn't published by "Rome". It sounds like you are into conspiracy theories.
Well to begin with you don't have a complete bible. But more importantly it is what you are lacking that leads to your misunderstanding. You have no knowledge of what Catholicism actually teaches. You will go out of your way to surf the internet to find oblique references to Catholicism and will cite the most reprehensible source, but you have never cited anything directly from the Vatican website. Perhaps you believe that a cookie on your computer from the Vatican will condemn you to hell or will have the same scalding effect as Holy Water.
Are you denying that Mary was blessed or are you implying that everyone is blessed?
>>My mother wouldn’t be too happy if I called her “woman.” <<
My mother was perfectly happy to be called Baba. Every Polish mother is.
Understanding that Jesus was not an English speaker and your mother is, may be why you don’t get the concept.
>>The infant Jesus did not save us by His merciful sacrifice on the cross. The man, Jesus Christ, the only “shepherd and bishop of our souls,” gave up His life for His sheep.<<
By that reasoning, the infant Jesus is a separate person from the one on the cross.
That’s odd.
>>Someone who had never borne a child might be ignorant.<<
I think that might be it.
As I tell my daughters, “You will be my babies, even when you have babies of your own.”
=============================================
And it is lazy to throw around accusations without reading the entire thread. I did define it here
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Exodus 20:2-5 no graven image. Does not mean we should not have them. If so- then God would contradict Himself, and we know God does not do that in the Bible and His teachings. He is not strict and absolute in the context of this teaching. Just 5 chapters later- God gives Moses explicit instructions on how to construct the “Ark of the Covenant” Exodus 25:17-19 Which is sculpted statues of angels on the Ark. This was to contain the presence of God and was to be venerated{honored} as the holiest place in all of Israel.
There is a difference between posting a correct and incorrect or indirect definition. You have attempted to tie meanings in a completely irrelevant and deceitful manner. Defined in the religious context of this discussion your extrapolation of necromancy is just wrong. Do you actually believe that all solemn appeals are sinful, or just those by Catholics?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.