Replies

Sorry, but your misunderstanding of the status of dead saints does not trump the Second Commandment.

While my need for sleep and the acrid environment of this thread, which I see has not changed much since I last glanced at it about four days ago, was inclining me to neglect my promise of last Sunday to spend a bit of time this Sunday in further discussion with you, Our Lord placed a scripture in front of me through the Church’s liturgy for the day that indicated to me that I ought to at least reply to this post.

1. We may ask others to pray for us.
I Thes 5:25 and II Thes 3:1, cited in post 264, make this point, and while you do object in 266 to asking those who are no longer united to their bodies to pray for us on the grounds that according to your theological understanding, you in no way show that asking others to pray for us is idolatry.

2. Those who are theologically alive can pray without aggregating to themselves the status of God.
Christ commands us to pray many times. St. Paul accepts this point in the verses that I cited in the first point of this argument. St. John bears witness to this truth in his vision which is part of the liturgy the Church uses for those who keep vigil for the third Sunday of Easter: When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voicce, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” (Rev. 6:9-10) The prophet Jeremiah is recorded as praying much in II Maccabees 15:15-16 (I doubt you will give much weight to this text—but I venerate it none the less, and does indicate that the belief is compatible with the form of Judaism rejected by the Sadducees).

3. According to Christ, at least if St. Matthew reports His words accurately, on which I trust we can agree, categorizing those who are no longer united to their bodies as dead is theologically incorrect.
I noted this in post 378 through introducing Christ’s commentary on Exodus 3:6—referenced in an oblique way. Post 379 dismissed the commentary as “the flimisiest argument in favour of praying to dead people that you have ever read”—well, I will grant you that in its original context, which I hinted at more blatantly in post 386, it is not specifically an argument regarding prayer to such people, but does address the question as to whether or not they are dead. The precise verse that I cited and which you dismissed is Matthew 22:32—cited in conjunction with 22:29, which seemed apropos. My understanding of this verse as stating that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as living—and Christ says he is not dead—is then dismissed in the post to which I am replying as somehow being a violation of the Second Commandment, as you understand it. I do not see how understanding somebody to be alive means that I am worshipping them. I understand your to be alive, do you think that I am worshipping you? For that matter, I trust that you think that I am alive, are you worshipping me? James 2:26 makes it clear that the body without the spirit is dead, but it seems that the spirit without the body can be quite alive.

4. Those who are separated from their bodies are capable of hearing those who are not separated from their bodies, and so can receive requests for intercession.
Our Lord speaks to dead people in Mark 5:35, John 11:43, and Matthew 17:3; indeed, for Him to speak with those whom you consider theologically dead seemed so in keeping with his character and so feasible that they misunderstand an utterance on the cross as speaking to Elijah and do not rule out the possibility that in response Elijah may appear to save him (Matthew 27:46-49). In Hebrews, the righteous whom you consider dead are not treated as distant examples, but as people who “surround” us(Heb. 12:1) and as part of an assembly to which we are joined (12:22-24). The point of an assembly is to bring people together in a coordinated way for common action. Our Lord, in the story of Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man, (Luke 16:19-31) does not record Abraham as rejecting the rich man’s request on grounds that he is committing idolatry by asking something of some one whom Dr. Eckleburg considers dead, but on the grounds that their is no point. Moreover, if the rich man’s spiritual eyes (Lk. 16:22) can see Abraham though he is far off—the distance between heaven and hell—and the richman and Abraham are capable of spiritually speaking and hearing over such a great distance, would they not be capable of hearing and speaking that which is said and heard in a place that lies between?

In summation, we can ask others who are theologically alive to pray for us without committing idolatry; they may pray for us without posing as objeccts of idolatry; being separated from one’s body is not an obstacle to being theologically alive; and in ways that we do not understand, the lack of a body does not pose an obstacle to the communication involved.

Somehow, this is in conflict with your understanding of the second commandment, but there are no second commandment problems with the first and second points if one accepts the teachings of Christ. The third point, the status of those who are away from the body and alive in the Lord does not seem to concern idolatry, though I am willing to entertain an argument to the contrary in defense of the post to which I am presently responding. Even if the fourth point were incorrect, talking to some one who cannot hear does not seem idolatry—otherwise anyone who had a bad phone connection would be guilty of idolatry.

I will await your comment, and look forward to responding to it or one of your other posts while keeping vigil next
Sunday.