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To: MarkBsnr
Thank you for the posting - I learn much of Reformed thought each time that you exchange this sort of information. Piper does bring up Acts 2:23 which is quite plain, yet, there is no indication of the 'how' of the plan. Foreknowledge, certainly, but not predestination. Does God plan based upon His foreknowledge, but not predestination? That is the Christian belief from the beginning. And, since God has already experienced everything, the idea of 'plan' is an anthropocentric one, since we are in time, and God is not.

You're welcome. We specifically believe that God does NOT plan based on His foreknowledge, but rather on what He wills. WCF Chapter 3 says: "II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions."

In essence, God's will IS His plan, and IS predestination. Providence is the means of implementing it. Although it is in fact simultaneous, for purposes of discussion the logical order would be that foreknowledge (everything that happens) is the RESULT of predestination. God can look into the future but He is seeing His own work, which has already been planned and carried out. Therefore, it would not make sense for Him to plan based on what He has already planned and completed. This is why God planning based on foreknowledge makes no sense. His foreknowledge includes His own actions which were already purposed. Instead, what God wills He predestinates and His foreknowledge is knowing that He will do (has done) as He wants.

Do I believe that God Created His Universe and then interferes in it subtly, poking and nudging? Sure. Does He have two wills, one of which is more dominant than the other? On the face of it, no.

I don't think of it as one will dominating or competing with another. One will is God's Holy standard. The other is His plan within a time filled with sinful creatures. It was God's choice. He let sin happen by His choice, not because He was beaten by a greater power. So, He chose to interact with the sinful and His will was in control. Naturally, the sinful will not live up to God's standards, so there is a plan and will that are carried out. At some point God's dealing with the sinful will be over and that will (plan) will be completed. God's perfect will, OTOH, is infinite.

459 posted on 04/18/2010 5:26:27 PM PDT by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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To: Forest Keeper
We specifically believe that God does NOT plan based on His foreknowledge, but rather on what He wills. WCF Chapter 3 says: "II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions."

And, as we both know, the WCF was a political document more than a theological one, even more than the KJV was. I did a study which I presented to the good Dr. E. a couple of years ago in which I tallied up the proofs of the WCF to see which portions of the Bible they relied upon. The Gospels were almost unrepresented; the uses were more as secondary or tertiary references, rather than direct proofs, which were more relegated to Paul and the OT.

In essence, God's will IS His plan, and IS predestination. Providence is the means of implementing it.

Negative. God does not micromanage Creation. His perpetual offer of His Grace is to us so that we can accept it; if He programmed His Universe, then Grace would only be injected once and would be sufficient for salvation.

God can look into the future but He is seeing His own work, which has already been planned and carried out. Therefore, it would not make sense for Him to plan based on what He has already planned and completed. This is why God planning based on foreknowledge makes no sense. His foreknowledge includes His own actions which were already purposed. Instead, what God wills He predestinates and His foreknowledge is knowing that He will do (has done) as He wants.

But the evidence is not there that He creates men for hell and only creates some men for Heaven. Life for all men is like the two thieves crucified with the Lord:

Luke 23: 39 6 Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, "Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us." 40 The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, "Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? 41 And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal." 42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43 He replied to him, "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

One of the great lessons of mankind is whether we assume the role of the thief on one side or the other. God does not make us; he enables us to make the choice.

I don't think of it as one will dominating or competing with another. One will is God's Holy standard. The other is His plan within a time filled with sinful creatures. It was God's choice. He let sin happen by His choice, not because He was beaten by a greater power. So, He chose to interact with the sinful and His will was in control. Naturally, the sinful will not live up to God's standards, so there is a plan and will that are carried out. At some point God's dealing with the sinful will be over and that will (plan) will be completed. God's perfect will, OTOH, is infinite.

One thing that is evidence against this argument is God's repeated expressions of exasperation and despair over the Bible at His seeming inability to get the Jews to accept Him and His Commandments for longer than overnight. Is that simply playacting?

466 posted on 04/19/2010 6:33:25 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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