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To: svcw
R there is no proof for any of the lds claims.

That depends on what you would accept as "proof."

I have posted here frequently, trying to explain what I believe and why. I believe that what have I written is true. Nevertheless, I do not expect anyone to accept the claims of Mormonism on my say-so.

Instead, I would urge everyone to study the Book of Mormon and apply the test given in Moroni 10:4, 5:

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

I consider personal revelation from God to be the best "proof" one can have of eternal truths.

128 posted on 03/17/2010 6:17:03 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Logophile
Hinkley said that lds believe in a different jesus than the Christian Jesus.
I only commune with the Jesus of the Bible.

Although I believe you are sincere, I also believe you to be deceived.

129 posted on 03/17/2010 6:40:50 PM PDT by svcw (Jesus comforts the uncomfortable and makes uncomfortable the comfortable.)
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To: Logophile; svcw
God, the Eternal Father (Moroni 10:4)

Ya wanna explain Logophile, how, if the Mormon god was once a man, how he could also be the eternal father??? (Does the word "eternal" Mormonese only run on a one-way "street" so to speak...eternal future but never eternal past???) How "eternal" is an eternality that's not very eternal???

...ye may know the truth of all things. (Moroni 10:5)

Logo, this is both a false promise and an already-covered lesson plan man should have learned long ago!
How is it a false promise? NO ONE (other than Jesus Christ Himself, the Father, and the Spirit as our one God) "know(s) the truth of ALL things"!!! And no one CAN know "the truth of all things" unless they expect to be omniscient and become like god -- which, temple Mormons, in their lack of humility, anticipate will happen to them!!!
How is this a lesson plan we don't need to repeat? This is a lure for power, for knowledge is power, and the promise that a person will be "hooked up" with ALL KNOWLEDGE is what we should have learned long ago from Adam & Eve eating from the tree of knowledge of good & evil.

130 posted on 03/17/2010 6:55:28 PM PDT by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it.)
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To: Logophile
Mormons frequently refer people investigating their religion to a promise in the Book of Mormon, Moroni 10:4: "And when ye shall receive these things [the Book of Mormon], I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."

Let's look at that claim.

Moroni 10:4 is not so much of a promise as it is a manipulative device. It promises a particular result if certain terms are met. But the terms reflect on the seeker's integrity as regards both his sincerity and resolve, and on his faith in Christ. To be willing to rely on the promise of this verse as a test for the Book of Mormon's truthfulness one must already have concluded somehow that its instruction is valid and its promise reliable. That is, one must already believe in the "truthfulness" of this verse.

If the verse is true, then the only possible explanation for failing to obtain the result promised is a failure to meet the terms. That is, one must lack a sincere heart, and/or real intent, and/or faith in Christ. If one believes the verse is true then one must obtain the answer promised, or face an embarrassing judgement of one's sincerity, intent, or faith in Christ. The seeker is forced into convincing himself he has had some kind of manifestation from God, just to vindicate his own character. Or worse, he is moved to a frame of mind where he will gladly and indiscriminately embrace any supernatural manifestation as though it were from God.

Plain reason, not to mention all the force of Scripture's revelation of the character of God, testifies that God would not, does not, use such manipulative mind/ego games against the human family to bring them to believe the truth. God does not approve, and truth does not need, such machinations.


131 posted on 03/17/2010 7:04:25 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 ("The Economy Is So Bad, Even 'Rosy Scenario' Lost Her Job"-Jim Geraghty)
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To: Logophile; svcw
Instead, I would urge everyone to study the Book of Mormon and apply the test given in Moroni 10:4, 5

Logo, I have studied the BoM & the specific book of Moroni...here are some of my "fave" passages from Joseph Smith's prose as really revealed in the book of Moroni:

Moroni chapter 1: "I have not as yet perished..." (Moroni 1:1)...[Well, duh!!!! I mean, I didn't really think you were a "ghost" writer as of this date, Mo!]

Moroni chapter 5: The manner of administering the wine--Behold, they took the cup... (Moroni 5:1) [Yeah, well, this got "watered" down in a hurry by drunkard Mormons in St. George!!!! See my earlier post on this]

Moroni chapter 6: ...relying ALONE upon the merits of Christ... (Moroni 6:4) [When will that start happening for Mormons, Logo?]

I have "lots" of "fave" verses in Moroni 8, but allow me to close out this post with my "fave" verse excerpts from Moroni 7:
"For behold..." (v. 6)
"For behold..." (v. 7)
"For behold..." (v. 8)
"For behold..." (v. 13)
"For behold..." (v. 15
"For behold..." (v. 16)
"For behold..." (v. 22)
"For behold..." (v. 24)
"For behold..." (v. 30)
"For behold..." (v. 37)
"For behold..." (v. 39)
"For behold..." (v. 41)

It's pretty obvious from reading Moroni 7, Logo, that Joseph needed a little "time-killing" transition word, while he was thinking of where the next verse should go as he was dictating it to the scribe. (There's just no reason for someone pressed for space to scribble notes on gold to waste it on "behold" a dozen times every third verse or so).

So you're serious??? You want people to pray about Moroni 10:4-5 when Mormons violently militate in their curricula, missionary lesson plans, articles, Web site, media content, etc. vs. adhering to Moroni 6:4 -- relying ALONE upon the merits of Christ???

132 posted on 03/17/2010 7:11:01 PM PDT by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it.)
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To: Logophile; svcw

Proof. Let’s start with Archaeological proof of ANYTHING in the BoM (nope), how about 100% true prophecies (req’d in the Bible) from the LDS ‘prophets’ (nope), how about the gold plates (nope), how about the Book of Abraham matching the scrolls (nope), the bones of Zelph (nada).

Then you cite “moroni’s promise” and claim personal revelation. Let’s look at that closer, shall we? Moroni’s promise is self fulfilling. If you do not get the answer the Missionaries tell you there must be something wrong with YOU, not the BoM.

It assumes you will know it is ‘true’ if you have...

a sincere heart,
real intent,
having faith in Christ,
THEN he will manifest the truth of it unto you.

Christians accept the idea of personal revelation but we recognize that if a revelation DOES NOT AGREE with the Bible, then it is NOT OF GOD.

Praying the BoM is ‘true’ is NOT BIBLICAL. God doesn’t tell us to pray to determine if something is true, we are told to compare doctrines with Scripture (the Bible) to judge if it is true.

Our feelings can and do lead us astray and therefore is not a good marker if something is ‘true’ or not.


146 posted on 03/17/2010 7:59:26 PM PDT by reaganaut (Don't mind me, I did a little to much LDS in the 80's (Star Trek IV reference))
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To: Logophile
God, the Eternal Father

God according to mormomism, could never have been the eternal father, for he once was a man, just like his god was once a man and as that god was once a man ad infinitum.

Care to explain that.

254 posted on 03/18/2010 9:30:14 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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