I am sorry that you cannot understand my objection. The Fundamentalist Protestant criticisms you so object to come from the right. The criticisms of Fundamentalist Protestantism which you and your co-religionists continuously make on this forum (simple-minded, ignorant, bigoted, etc.) come from the left. I don't object to being told I'm "going to hell." I don't object being told that I am "of my father the devil." I very much object to being told I am a simple-minded fool by some over-intellectualized higher critical snob with the same attitude as an Ivy League elitist. Maybe you Catholics should try criticizing Protestantism from the right some day?
I wonder if the Spanish Inquisition employed your liberal vocabulary when criticizing "heretics?"
There is one point to be made there, though: protestants also suffer the abuse of non-believers for our Lord’s sake. It makes me wish our separated brethren were less violent in their attacks on us.
They're not your separated brethren. They are a completely different religion with a completely different worldview. By their standards, you are not a chr*stian at all. And by your standards they aren't chr*stians at all. The fact that Catholics trumpet their liberalism by considering Protestants their "brethren" is one of the things that shows how far to the Left Catholicism has slipped.
The idea that there is some amorphous concept called "historic orthodox chr*stianity" to which all self-identifying chr*stians other than mormons belong is garbage.
So, do you disagree with Saint Thomas Aquinas when he says, “The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false.”?
Perhaps you aren't up to speed on the latest scientific discoveries, so let me clue you in: A "virgin birth" is a scientific impossibility. So is resurrection from the dead. So is "transubstantiation." So is bilocation. None of these things is scientifically possible. Yet you believe in them while in utter hypocrisy subjecting the creation of the world from nothing to the scientific laws that we know today. There is, and can be, only one reason for this inconsistency: the former scientific impossibilities are "Catholic miracles" and are therefore all right. Young Earth Creationism is "Protestant" and therefore to be treated like a disease (after all, who wants to be associated with those people in the trailer parks?).
Cosmogony is beyond the realm of science altogether. It is strictly theological. Science has nothing to say about cosmogony.
I wonder why it is that good Catholic intellectuals are never embarrassed by peasant folk Catholicism? Even that notorious Biblical critic Hans Kung refuses to criticize it (since it's so "quaint"). It's really great to know that the "inclusive" Catholic Church has room for every kind of simple-minded piety except for that of those awful rednecks. And you know what? This attitude is no different from the attitude of liberals who laugh at redneck creationists while swooning in ecstasy at the thought of the superstitions of "indigenous pipples."
Your attitudes are straight from the Left. And so is that of your church.
If American Catholics voted their theology this country wouldn't be in the mess it's in. The only thing keeping this country--and you along with it--from the abyss is those "ignorant rednecks" you so look down on. Shame on you.
“This country would be better off if all those liberal urban Catholics were “bigoted” Southern Anglo-Saxon Protestants.”
No, the truth is always better.
You take Nancy Pelosi and the truth. I'll take Pat Robertson and good intentions.
Here on FR, Catholics discuss the Church pretty much exclusively in response to attack, and do it for the most part moderately and modestly (excepting myself, I guess).
Here on FR, Catholics respond to Protestant attacks by engaging in liberal rhetoric about "bigotry" and "intolerance" and other similar leftist buzzwords because apparently it's the only way they know how to react. Say what you will about Fundamentalist Protestants, at least they aren't liberals.
“Why shouldn’t Protestants consider eighteenth century Methodists the people who brought Christianity to Ireland if they don’t even recognize your religion as Christianity at all?”
Facts are stubborn things.
Yes they are. And it is a fact that by Fundamentalist Protestant standards, Catholicism isn't chr*stianity. And the only reason that you can accommodate Fundamentalist Protestants (while despising them) into your definition of chr*stianity is that your a multicultural leftist. And btw, people who have been trying to convert Jews for two thousand years have no business condemning Protestants for wanting to convert the Irish.
Why do you think we don’t know that? As Archbishop Sheen said, “There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church—but there are millions who hate what they mistakenly think the Catholic Church teaches.”
I spent six years in the Catholic Church and nearly went nuts trying to have it make sense. It doesn't.
You see, it looks like there is something of which you are unaware: the reason it makes no sense is because they misunderstand it, and many are conditioned to reject all reasoned discussion and explanation.
There is no reasonable defense of the position that Biblical law and ceremonial was abolished and replaced with "better" ones. Either the Biblical law and ceremonial are still in place or (G-d forbid!) they were abolished and replaced with an antinomian loophole. Every argument against the Torah works against Catholic ceremonial, and every defense of Catholic ceremonial is equally valid when applied to the Torah.
I apologize for having been born into the wrong ethno-culture and inheriting a belief in the wrong miracles. Had I been born into a family of illiterate Mayan peasants in Guatemala, doubtless you would look on my simplicity as a beautiful thing. But alas, I am a redneck, and mighty science must be marshalled in a vain attempt to turn the Book of Genesis (that awful anti-Catholic tract!) into a metaphor. I guess it's a good thing no illiterate Mayan peasant in Guatemala has ever heard of Young Earth Creationism. So their charming folk beliefs remain unadulterated.
“The Fundamentalist Protestant criticisms you so object to come from the right.”
Hardly. Catholic liberals agree with a lot of the things Fundementalist Protestants think about the practices of the Catholic Church. Here’s some things that right-leaning Protestants and left-leaning Catholics will almost always agree on: Authority of the Pope (don’t like it). Authority of the bishops (don’t like it). The True Presence (it’s not really Jesus). The discipline of Celibacy (isn’t valuable, liberal Catholics HATE this one). Birth Control inside of marriage (who is it hurting?). Divorce and remarriage(it’s not nice but ultimately it is acceptable). Necessity and worth of Confession to a priest.
This doesn’t make Fundementalist liberals, many of the things they agree with Catholic libs on they come to much differently than the Catholic lib, who will also dig things like “gay marriage”, abortion, and priestesses as well as the above, while the right leaning Fundementalist will be against these things (and I thank God they are!).
Freegards
“I am sorry that you cannot understand my objection. The Fundamentalist Protestant criticisms you so object to come from the right. The criticisms of Fundamentalist Protestantism which you and your co-religionists continuously make on this forum (simple-minded, ignorant, bigoted, etc.) come from the left.”
1. Your objection is grounded in falsehood. To wit:
a. The protestant criticisms are unsupported other than by falsehood. Falsehood and leftism are both of and from Satan. Those false criticisms, therefore, are from the left.
b. Your statement that Catholics “continuously” call fundamentalist Protestantism simple-minded, ignorant, bigoted, etc. on this forum, is utterly and completely false.
“I very much object to being told I am a simple-minded fool”
Really? When somebody says something like that to me, the first thing I do is check to see if they’re right.
“Maybe you Catholics should try criticizing Protestantism from the right some day?”
We do. Truth is of and from God, and therefore of the right.
“I wonder if the Spanish Inquisition employed your liberal vocabulary when criticizing “heretics?”
Oh, good grief, don’t you have any respect for the truth?
You make yourself ridiculous when you imply that I am a liberal or use a liberal vocabulary. Not to mention dredging up the Inquisition again.
“They’re not your separated brethren. They are a completely different religion with a completely different worldview.”
That’s not for you to say. You have no standing in the matter, and, if you understand Protestantism no better than you understand Catholicism, no basis for an opinion.
“By their standards, you are not a Christian at all.”
Some of the fringe protestant denominations, operating solely on the basis of misunderstandings of Catholic doctrine, labor under that misapprehension. If there were some way to make them understand Catholic doctrine, they would admit that they have been mistaken.
“And by your standards they aren’t Christians at all.”
Stuff and nonsense. Just another area of Catholic teaching on which you are completely mistaken.
“The fact that Catholics trumpet their liberalism by considering Protestants their “brethren” is one of the things that shows how far to the Left Catholicism has slipped.”
It’s really sad that your view has become so distorted. To see that as “trumpeting liberalism” is a gross error.
“The idea that there is some amorphous concept called “historic orthodox Christianity” to which all self-identifying Christians other than Mormons belong is garbage.
Your sweeping misunderstanding of Catholicism and the rest of Christianity deprives you of the standing to make any such statement. An opinion grounded only in misprision is worthless.
“Perhaps you aren’t up to speed on the latest scientific discoveries, so let me clue you in: A “virgin birth” is a scientific impossibility.”
How sad it is that your intellectual development is arrested at such an early stage. Science deals with what exists in the physical universe. It is by definition inadequate to make any pronouncement whatsoever on the subject of miracles.
“So is resurrection from the dead. So is “transubstantiation.” So is bilocation.”
A God who can create an entire universe, replete with clusters of galaxies beyond counting, is quite capable of accomplishing those things.
Here’s the thing: You want science to be the ultimate arbiter of all things, without exception. The notion of a God who manipulates the laws of science at His whim is unacceptable. But science is only our effort to understand things within our physical universe. It cannot be used to discover anything regarding matters outside our physical universe.
“Yet you believe in them while in utter hypocrisy subjecting the creation of the world from nothing to the scientific laws that we know today.”
So, the definition of hypocrisy is just one more thing on which you are mistaken.
There is no contradiction between saying that scientific law seems to govern our universe on the one hand, and on the other admitting that God does what pleases him without regard to those laws. After all, He created them, but is not bound by them as we are.
“There is, and can be, only one reason for this inconsistency”
There is no inconsistency.
“the former scientific impossibilities are “Catholic miracles”
1. The are not “former” impossibilities. They remain scientifically impossible. And yet, they occurred. Kind of knocks science off its pedestal.
2. Where did you get this “Catholic miracles” stuff? Miracles are God’s.
“Young Earth Creationism is “Protestant” and therefore to be treated like a disease (after all, who wants to be associated with those people in the trailer parks?).”
Is that what this is all about? Do you suffer from some sense of inadequacy arising from humble beginnings?
We don’t treat YEC like a disease. We treat it as an error.
“It’s really great to know that the “inclusive” Catholic Church has room for every kind of simple-minded piety except for that of those awful rednecks.”
I, on the other hand, would be pleased to learn that some of your apparently inexhaustible store of mistaken opinions regarding Catholicism had been replaced by the truth.
There may be Catholics who feel like that about rednecks, but that is no part of legitimate Catholic theology.
“Your attitudes are straight from the Left. And so is that of your church.”
You have failed entirely to demonstrate, or even support, such an outlandish accusation.
Do you subscribe to that “false witness” thing?
“If American Catholics voted their theology this country wouldn’t be in the mess it’s in.”
That may be true.
“The only thing keeping this country—and you along with it—from the abyss is those “ignorant rednecks” you so look down on.”
You have absolutely no justification whatsoever for accusing me of looking down on rednecks.
You want to know what makes a redneck? How about getting sunstroke working in the Oklahoma red dirt at the age of five? How about firing a shotgun for the first time that same year? How about holiday feasts with nothing bought from the store except flour, coffee, and sugar? Fried squirrel? Catfish, beans, and cornbread? Quail brought down with your own shotgun, or illegally trapped with materials a boy can find lying around a truck farm? Getting good enough with a bow to hunt rabbits with success? Old people at the table who actually came to Oklahoma in covered wagons? Scores of fistfights between 1st grade and 12th? Owning every CD and DVD by Jeff Foxworthy, Larry the Cable Guy, Bill Engvall, and Ron White, together with a not inconsequential number of classic country CDs? Having rebuilt a car as a youth? Cases of beer and skinny dipping at the lake after football games? Knowing how to camp in heat, rain, or deep snow—comfortably? Having been called by all three names as a boy? (As in, “Elvis! Elvis Aaron Presley, you git in this house right this minute, or I’m going to have you cut a switch.”)
How about being taken to tent revivals that make “Elmer Gantry” look tame? Several hours in a 55 Ford through a tornado outbreak to hear little Marjoe Gortner give out with his signature line, “Glory jee to beezus,” and the fat guy who could sing all four parts. Gillian Welch could have written “Red Clay Halo” just for me.
Look down on rednecks? I *am* a fargin’ redneck. I can piss red dirt on command. I can slaughter a pig, produce a crop of corn, strawberries, green beans, etc., seine bait from a creek, run a trot line, and fix my own fargin’ car. When I’m fishing at night and a water moccasin goes for my minnow, I just shoot him through the head with a 22 pistol. I shake my boots out before I put them on, every day of my life.
Shame on me, for something so far off the mark that one begins to understand why you were called a simple-minded fool?
Hell no, bubba. Shame on *you* for assuming ill of someone you know not at all, and engaging in malicious calumny on that account.
Your remarks have nothing to do with anything I have said or think, and it’s getting worse. Checking out of this discussion now.