Are Anti-Mormons Christians?

FAIR ^ | Russell McGregor

[metmom]

Then WHY do they come knocking on my door to sell Mormonism?

[Tennessee Nana]

Ultimately, only God can make that judgment. What does it matter what others call you? However, many of your beliefs are so, so far from the Bible that I just hope God is merciful.
___________________________________

Ah so you are a mormon after all...

Only a mormon would tell me, a Blood bought Christian that “many of (my) beliefs are so, so far from the Bible”

OK gottacha...

But saying wacky things to me wont change the Facts...

Mormons are not Christians...

[ejonesie22]

No minds will be changed through these internet discussions. So I just hope things turn out well for Mormons. Otherwise, I don't know. Scary.

Actually that is not true, there are at least two former LDS members here that broke free from the cult because of the postings in this very forum.

One would have been worth it, that there are two (and maybe more I don't know of) is spiritual fuel to keep going.

[reaganaut]

Good list Hoot. And well sourced as well. The internal contradictions in Mormonism is part of what led me out.

[ejonesie22]

But I thought the Book of Mormon was the most perfect book there ever was...

[Leoni]

Those who go off to heretics, and all who leave the Church for heresy, abandon the name of Christ. Those who call these men "Christians" are in grievous error, since they neither understand Scripture at all nor the faith which it contains. St Athanasius ("Discourse Against the Arians", Bk. I, ch.1,no.1, pg 26:11)

In name only is Christ found among certain heretics who want to be called Christians

He who falls away from the doctrine and faith of the Catholic Church would not be, nor would even be called, a Christian. (St. Athanasius)

All true Christians are members of the Church. (St. John Eudes)

Whosoever and whatsoever he might be, he who is not in Christ's Church is no Christian! (St. Cyprian)

A manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and others. (St Robert Bellarmine)

Many will come in My name, saying: "I am Christ," and they will seduce many. Many will say to Me on that day: "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name and cast out devils in Thy name and done many miracles in Thy name?" Then will I profess unto them: Depart from Me, you who work iniquity; I never knew you! St Matthew 24:4-5, 7.21-23

Pope Pius IX, Etsi multa (#25), November 21, 1873: “Therefore the holy martyr Cyprian, writing about schism, denied to the pseudo-bishop Novatian even the title of Christian, on the grounds that he was cut off and separated from the Church of Christ. ‘Whoever he is,’ he says, ‘and whatever sort he is, he is not a Christian who is not in the Church of Christ.’”

[reaganaut]

Thank you for your honest response and to a Christian what you stated IS blasphemy and shows an amazing lack of Biblical understanding.

[filospinato]

Thanks for telling me what I believe.

Actually, it doesn’t bother me personally to be called “non-Christian”. I have a belief in Him and a knowledge of His saving power regardless of monikers applied by others. I know that I took His name upon me when I was baptized in His name and I try to live up to that charge every day.

So thanks, but no thanks. I don’t need your labels one way or the other. I only replied to make the point of the double standard sometimes levied against LDS members by self professed “Christians”.

[SZonian]

Ping to reaganaut since you’re talking about her.

[reaganaut]

Mormons do not believe in the tenets of early Christianity so much as they believe the tenants of Gnosticism.

And yes, I know you are Noachide.

[Godzilla]

The general case can best be discovered by investigating what the New Testament has to say about such activities. The New Testament is the logical choice because it is held to be authoritative by almost all Christians, regardless of their differences. And in examining it we find little that gives aid and comfort to the anti-Mormon cause, while there is considerable material that weakens their position.

It is wonderful that this article is posted – as the reader slogs their way through unbelievably twisted logic of the central portion, FAIR – an unofficial mouthpiece for mormonites – throws mud all over the place in an illustrious display of illogic and never even coming close to demonstrating their point.

Paul (in Gal. 5:19-23) and James (in Jas.3:14-18) both contrast the peaceful, non-controversial Christian way of doing things with contentious and strife-ridden world.

Galatians 5 is speaking in part with respect to fellow Christians and AGAINST another cult (very similar legalistically to mormonism). So how does he address the legalists trying to “convert” the Church at Galatia?

Gal 1:7 KJV - Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 KJV - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 KJV - As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Gal 5:12 KJV - I would they were even cut off (ie castrate themselves) which trouble you.

Ah, cherry picking of the passage by FAIR again. Paul is clearly NOT the ‘non-controversial’ (that in itself is a laugh).

James is speaking to fellow Christians and is not addressing cults or sects that may be trying to corrupt it.

The parallel is exact. Anti-Mormons today are the legitimate heirs of Demetrius the Silversmith, while the ancient saints behave strikingly like the modern ones.

ROTFLAICGU, what a polemic if there ever was one. What is embedded into this statement? One – mormonism is the only TRUE belief and any who challenge it are pagans. Demetrius tries to take physical actions, creates a riot, etc. Show me just one location where that is happing against momons today – show me where the ‘anti’s ‘ are coming with torches and pitchforks. The hyperbole is way off the charts.

Now, is this kind of representation of ‘Anti’s’ correspond to how FAIR claims Christians should act. Remember, this is a two edged sword FAIR is wielding and it is cutting them deeper than any Anti because they totally lost any higher ground by this mud slinging.

However, he immediately lets the cat out of the bag in the very next paragraph, thus: Why do I do this? Because I consider such ideas as the Doctrine of the Apostasy and the First Vision attacks against the Christian Faith.

Ah, the crux of the matter. Here are the two items that PR savvy mormons don’t like broadcast outside of a the controlled context – the foundational mormon claim that ALL Christian denominations are apostate and no longer part of the TRUE Church and the ONLY true Church is that of mormonism. The boys at FAIR would have done well to avoid this aspect. How has mormonism spoken towards Christianity?

"What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world"
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 270

"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels."
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. , The Elders Journal, v. 1, no. 4, p. 60

From the top of the article -
It has always been the stance of the Latter-day Saints to live by the Golden Rule, as part of the teachings of Jesus, extending to others the same courtesy that they would like them to extend to us. Thus, we do not generally question the genuineness of another's Christian belief.

It appears that Joseph Smith didn’t extend the same courtesy, did he? This is an attitude modeled by mormon leaders through to the present day. In their temples, satan is shown to be placing a Protestant minister into his employ - essentially stating Satanism = Christianity.

Oh, and never forget the 53,000 mormon missionaries who on a daily basis go door to door, questioning the genuineness of Christian belief – because their message is that they attend an apostate church. So what are we to make of this? By FAIRS own definitions – mormonism is anti-Christian.

So we return to the question with which we began this survey: are anti-Mormons Christian? The answer: of course not. They were never even in the hunt.

Hypocrisy - thy name is mormonism. With twisted logic as FAIR (and anyone who agrees with them), sorry to break it to you – it is you who’ve never been in the hunt. Methinks he has assumed his ‘godhood’ prematurely

Their clerical collars and pious platitudes are simply a smokescreen to hide the ugly reality that anti-Mormonism is one of the clear manifestations of the darkest side of human nature; the side that made possible the death camps and burning crosses, the massacre of the Hutus and the wholesale slaughter of the Native Americans.

This is even more choice. I guess mormons forget about Mountain Meadow Massacre, the various massacres of different Indian groups in the west, etc. The forget about a blood oath against the United States of America (only recently removed from their temple oaths). This bleat reminds me of a recent encounter here with a so-called mormon “apologist” who thought nothing about demeaning the military service of an American – while himself squirreled away in Canada. Same little person was almost wetting their pants because of the impending pogrom.

Just as vicious and repressive dictatorships like to give themselves grandiose and liberal-sounding titles like "The People's Democratic Socialist Republic of Such-and-such", so these nasty religious haters appropriate the label of "Christian" in order to claim for themselves a specious respectability that their deeds and attitudes do not merit.

Oh, they got me trembling in my bunny slippers.

What is fundamental here is a debate over the correct doctrine. Christianity has been around from the beginning – nearly 2000 years – and throughout has had to confront heretical doctrines – Just like the one’s Paul opposed in Galatians. Mormons demand equal standing – no, not equal – but superior standing with Christianity because the worship “Jesus”. A true inquirer would be wise to examine mormon doctrine compared to Christianity. The bottom line is this

Former mormon prophet Hinkley is on record stating that the “Jesus” of mormonism IS NOT the same Jesus of Biblical Christianity. Look at their doctrines

Mormon “Jesus” was originally created a ‘spirit child’, a brother to satan as well as you and I.
The Christian Jesus has always been God the Son, the creator of the angels (including satan) and humanity

The mormon Jesus is one of a pantheon of other gods, ruling their planets throughout the universe.
The Christian Jesus is a Person of the Singular Godhead – one God over the entire universe. Anything else called ‘god’ is a false god.

The mormon ‘Jesus’ only saves to a physical resurrection. To become a ‘god’ (salvation aka exultation) requires works, temple ordnances, adherence to wow, etc (sounds more like the Galations cult all the time).
The Christian Jesus’ salvation is a free gift to all – no works required to make you ‘worthy’ for that salvation. It saves to the fullest.

These comparisons are commonly what these mormons call hate speech or define us as “anti’s”.
Asking for archaeological support for the book of mormon is considered ‘hate’
Examining and challenging their beliefs – that’s hate?
George Albert Smith stated “If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak. Journal of Discourses, Volume 14, Page 216

In their efforts to ‘protect’ their faith, they ignore their own leaders challenge to test momonism – resulting in this kind of cry-baby apologetic.

[Tennessee Nana]

And we know Jesus did not lie...

Because Jesus is God...

And God does not lie...

God is not a man, so He does not lie. He is not human, so He does not change his mind. Has He ever spoken and failed to act? Has He ever promised and not carried it through? Numbers 23:19

[Colofornian]

Liberty1970, your basic argument boils down to: Mormons don’t believe exactly as you do, so you, as the arbiter of the term Christian, refuse them that designation. It’s funny because it IS true that Mormons don’t play that game. We don’t say “You all don’t believe in Christ the way we do so YOU aren’t Christian.”

Well, that's funny, Ensignbay. I seem to recall a certain Lds "prophet" "play[ing] that game" -- only the uniforms were changed a bit:

Sept. 8, 1998 airing of Larry King Live show:
KING: But when the word [polygamy] is mentioned, when you hear the word, you think Mormon, right?
HINCKLEY: You do it mistakenly. They have no connection to us whatsoever. They don't belong to the church. There are actually no Mormon fundamentalists.

So, there ya go. The Mormon "prophet"
speaking on behalf of the Mormon "god" (and you?)
claiming that Mormon fundamentalists don't exist.
They are mere phantoms.

So. If Hinckley could say: "Fundamentalist Mormons are not Mormons" -- and IN FACT, then, Mormons DO say, "You all [fLDS] don't believe...the way we do so YOU aren't Mormon."

Well, then I'm not sure how anybody -- you or any other Mormon -- could get riled up...without also getting riled up @ Hinckley about the statement, "Mormons are not Christians."

Lds "prophets" are not the only ones at liberty of establishing definitions and distinctions.

[ejonesie22]

Please point out these explanations that have been around for years.

I would be interested to see if they are the same as the ones that have been dismissed for years.

[mrreaganaut]

We don’t say “You all don’t believe in Christ the way we do so YOU aren’t Christian.”

No, you just say that we are untrue, and the Whore of Babylon. Ask Elsie if you need chapter and verse on those.

[Tennessee Nana]

Both of youz iz sweet and fuffy...

:)

[william clark]

Using your logic on #3, which I know is a standard LDS defense of this belief, then evidently Leona Helmsley’s cats became human hotel owners upon her death, since they were provided for in her will.

You can leave an inheritance to anything or anyone. It doesn’t make them you. Your own statement finishes up with the word “has.” That’s very different than “is.”

[reaganaut]

All of them. See post #31 for a list of what matters.

I do find it amusing that you are using the old LDS argument “either the Catholic Church is true, or the LDS church is true, the Protesants don’t have a leg to stand on”.

However, that false argument comes from an erroneous assumption that the Church of Christ is a denomination. It is not. The Greek word for church (Ekklesia) means ‘called out ones’, it has nothing to do with a particular denomination or a formal organization.

[Godzilla]

To them if we were to call any of them Christians they would be deeply offended.

I agree with our observations. After decades of shunning the application the term "Christian", now suddenly it is fashionable to be called that. Their doctrines are 180 degrees from Christianity - the two can never be the same.

[colorcountry]

I do find it amusing that you are using the old LDS argument “

He uses so many LDS arguments, yet he claims he isn't Mormon.

I've seen that tactic before. What were you posting about Lying for the Lord? ;)