Posted on 03/15/2010 12:07:15 PM PDT by Colofornian
Edited on 03/23/2010 6:15:31 PM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]
BTW, if I “gave” a gift to my child and he wasn’t aware of the gift or even knew that it existed,
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So you didn’t tell them? God told us.
For starters, I was in dialogue with norman (based upon the .
Where in your doctrine is this ‘rule of thumb’ stated?
Am I taking by defitions on ‘dammed’ and ‘salvation’ and putting them into the lds definition? Don’t know where you got that idea.
Seeking to understand also incorporates supporting definitions from your doctrines.
Most Christians interpret the saying of Jesus when he told Peter “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” that Hell or Satan will not prevail against the church. Sorry dude, but that is wrong. Most Mormons don’t understand it either.
The “gates of hell” as is translated in the newer versions on the Bible and in the original Greek as I have been told, is not about Satan or any of the attacks on the church, rather, the way it’s interpreted now in new versions of the Bible, it’s “the gates of Hades.”
Hades is not where Satan, and where the wicked are sent after the final judgment, Hades or Sheol is a place where the dead await the final judgment. Hades/Sheol is the place of the dead.
The church is to “attack” the gates of Hades/Sheol and prevail against it. It’s not about Satan or anybody attacking the church, it’s actually, almost, the other way around. Is it even about the church prevailing against the gates of hell/hades, or is it about the Rock prevailing against the gates of death and overcoming them?
Most Christians see “it”, “hell” and interpret them as “church” and “Satan” when they probably should be interpreting them as “Christ, the Rock” and “Hades/Sheol “ or “death.” The gates prevented the dead from finding new life, Christ prevailed against those gates to offer them new life.
Here is an article about this and it’s by a non-Mormon. If I’m not mistaken, I believe he’s even an Evangelical.
http://www.thorncrownjournal.com/dougreed/gatesofhell.html - The Gates of Hell
How about my ancestors who lived in Northern Europe 6,000 years ago. How did God tell them about this gift?
What are their names and dates of birth?
Well - how in the heck are you going to perform them there ordinances for them if you don’t know???
The logical fallacy of “cherry picking”
Cherry picking
Cherry picking is deliberately picking out the data or scientific studies that support your view, while ignoring the data or studies that oppose your view.
So Elsie, quoting something purposefully out of context is definitely a subclass “cherry picking” which a class of logical fallacies known as “Fallacies of evidence and causality.”
Ta da.
Read Romans. It tells you.
In proclaiming that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against His church, Jesus was saying His victory would not only encompass the afterlife but this life as well. Neither Caesar nor paganism would prevail against His people. If you recall the history of the first millennium, you know His words came true. Though Rome and Paganism tried to snuff out the light of the gospel, they were not able to do so.
Basically - Jesus was saying that there would be NO total apostasy, thus smith's claims are illegitimate.
That is beside point. Lady R said:
So you didn’t tell them? God told us.
So what if God told you. Apparently He never got around to telling many of my ancestors from 6,000 years ago about any gift of His.
Don’t you see that as a problem? If an all loving God said that only those who are saved (your definition of “saved.”) are those who accept this gift, that all else will suffer His wrath for the eternities without measure, will He inflict this eternal without measure sufferings on those who never knew about the gift and still be an all loving God?
BTW, during the Millennium, as you probably remember from your days of being a depraved Mormon, there will be communication between this earth and “Hades/Sheol” or what we Mormon call the post mortal spirit world. (Sidenote: Hades or Sheol is where the dead awaited their final judgment.) This is how all the names of the dead will be found out.
I am not the judge in these cases and I am not willing to make definitive statements about how God is going judge. I believe God will be merciful and compassionate and kind in His judgments, and also just.
To provide a broader context for quotation for Joseph Smith:
“What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
When a man begins to be an enemy to this work, he hunts me, he seeks to kill me, and never ceases to thirst for my blood. He gets the spirit of the devil—the same spirit that they had who crucified the Lord of Life—the same spirit that sins against the Holy Ghost . . .”
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 358)
Don’t you see that as a problem?
I don't see the problem. But I've read Romans. Maybe you should - and throw in a hefty dose of Hebrews while you're at it.
I don’t see the problem. But I’ve read Romans. Maybe you should - and throw in a hefty dose of Hebrews while you’re at it.
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Exactly, Romans is very clear on it.
But then the LDS have to create this false dichotomy in order their unbiblical doctrines to have any logical support.
oh I would appreciate a ping if you mention me. kthxbi.
“What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. . . . . . . This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
so are you stating that it is the belief that apostates from lds meet the conditions of being sons of perdition? Please note smith stated “many” apostates vs ‘very few’ from an earlier reply. Why the difference between the teaching of the prophet and your?
Godzilla, the person gave a very apt description of the verse.
Let me describe it differently.
Kingdom A is attacking Kingdom B. Kingdom B has a fine wall all the way around it, basically impenetrable except for the gates located within the wall.
So what is going to happen in this scenario, Kingdom A is going to attack Kingdom B and try to prevail against the gates of Kingdom B.
So, in this verse, who is attacking whom? How most people interpret this scripture is Satan is attacking the Church. Nope. The only way this could be interpreted like that is if Kingdom B was attacking Kingdom A and had taken the gates out of wall and was using them as weapons against Kingdom A. Sorry, but that doesn’t make any sense.
Prevail doesn’t necessarily mean a war is being waged or even great violence in occurring. All it means is that eventually the gates of Hades will be overcome and there will be a way through the wall. Creating the opening could mean anything from destroying doors to just finding the key to the doors.
No, Christ wasn’t saying here there wouldn’t be a total apostasy. He was saying that death would be overcome and conquered.
BTW, when you say “total apostasy,” what do you mean?
I have read both Romans and Hebrews many times each. Which parts of them should I be looking at closer and what should I be understanding as I read them?
BTW, would a loving God cast a soul into eternal damnation for not doing something that the soul couldn’t do.
For example, I am this tyrant of a kingdom and I say to one and all that I am a loving, kind, and benevolent tyrant. I walk into an elementary school one day and I ask a bunch of pre-Kers on their first day of school ever, to start performing differential equations from an advanced math book. I look at the children and the teacher and say,
“Look, I provided a gift for all of you, a fine math book, and you guys rejected it. I going to subject you all to violent torture for the rest of your lives. The punishment must fit the crime.”
“But Mr. Benevolent Tyrant, I never got the gift, in fact, I never heard of the gift.”
“I don’t care. That is not my problem. I sent the books to you, as a gift, and you rejected them. Your ingratitude has incurred my wrath.”
“But Mr. Loving Tyrant, where did you send the gift?”
“I sent it them all to the other side of the world.”
“But, Mr. Charitable Tyrant, how were we suppose to get the gift if you sent it to the other side of the world?”
“Sorry, not my problem, it’s your problem. Oh, and one other thing, I haven’t even printed up the books yet, but, then again, that’s not my problem, it’s somebody else’s problem, like yours. Since I am the loving, benevolent, all-caring tyrant and I love you all very much, I would never harm a single one of you unless you did something to incur my wrath and your rejection of my gift to you is more than sufficient to incur my wrath.”
“Guards, haul them all away and begin torturing them with exquisite, inexplicable, beyond belief pain and yada, yada, yada. Remember, it’s all for my pleasure. I am in control of everything.”
Well CC, thinking about it, I don’t see a problem there either. What was I thinking?
You are correct imho in the observation of hell attacking the church. you are incorrect from a Christian perspective - there is absolutely nothing in the context of Mt 16:18 that suggests that only death would be overcome and conquered. It has everything to do with the establishment of His CHURCH from that point on. Second thing to note - Jesus says this is ‘MY’ church he would be starting to build.
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“BTW, when you say “total apostasy,” what do you mean?”
I seek to apply it according to mormon definitions - that -
1) any authority granted to the church was completely lost until the time of smith
2) it was a universal apostasy
3) as a church - it was destroyed by corrupted teachings
I would also refer you to the ‘official’ version of the 1st vision as well as Christianity being represented by the protestant minister in your endowment ceremonies as well as JoD and History of the Church for an abundance of lds teaching on ‘total apostasy’
I don’t know what your story of the math teacher has to do with an omnipotent God.
God has attributes that cannot or will not change. You must figure out how his attributes play into the fact that there are many people who never heard of Christ. I am not God. Nor are you.
Here are a few of His attributes to study.
* The Power of God
* The Goodness of God
* The Wisdom of God
* The Holiness of God
* The Righteousness of God
* The Wrath of God
* The Grace of God
* The Sovereignty of God
* The Immutability of God
* The Joy of God
* The Invisibility of God
* The Forgiving God
* The Truth of God
* The Love of God
* The Glory of God
Waste of time, CC. The LDS don’t think outside the boxes they are given and have weaked God to the point he is just a man with more experience than them and so they use human logic.
They cannot see His majesty nor can they see His grace. They think God can be perfectly understood by mere humans.
Yeah, urroner likens God to a tyrant and tries to make a point. It’s really weird.
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