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To: kosta50; Alamo-Girl; Excellence; stfassisi
In other words, the way I read it is that if you recieve the last rites, that is, before your death you confess your sins and re absolved of them, then you do not die "imperfectly purified" and your soul is not subjected to purgation.

I don't read it that way, dear kosta. It seems to me God's justice is not to be had that cheaply. A truly penitent sinner is forgiven — but that does not cancel the sinner's obligation or restitution for wrongs caused by the sin. In other words, the Lord's Justice metes measure for measure. Thus, "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."

Or at least this is my belief, as matters presently stand....

43 posted on 03/14/2010 11:16:55 PM PDT by betty boop (Moral law is not rooted in factual laws of nature; they only tell us what happens, not what ought to)
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To: betty boop

“”It seems to me God’s justice is not to be had that cheaply. A truly penitent sinner is forgiven — but that does not cancel the sinner’s obligation or restitution for wrongs caused by the sin. In other words, the Lord’s Justice metes measure for measure. Thus, “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.”””

I agree with the measure for measure ,but we can not rule out the possibility there could be some people that go directly to heaven after death because they have led very holy lives and “paid back the last penny” and than some for others that God allowed through reparation. I would think this is not the norm and such people are Saintly while here on earth.

Anyway,here is a great article by the late FR William Most on the measure by measure

How Redemption Operated
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=160

Excerpt..

So Paul VI continues:”For every sin brings with it a disturbance of the universal order, which God arranged in unspeakable wisdom and infinite love.” In other words, God being Holiness itself, loves everything that is right. This was a striking idea when it first broke on the world. For the gods of Mesopotamia, Greece and Rome were not just immoral but amoral - they acted as if there were no morality at all. But Psalm 11:7 told the world: “God is sadiq [morally righteous] and He loves the things that are morally right.” Hence the notion that sin is a debt which the Holiness of God wants paid.

Against this background Paul VI continued (p. 7): “Therefore it is necessary for the full remission and reparation of sins... not only that by a sincere conversion of mind friendship with God be restored, and that the offenses against His wisdom and goodness be expiated, but also that all the goods, both personal and social, which pertain to the universal order itself, which were diminished or destroyed by sin, be fully restored, either through voluntary reparation... or through enduring penalties established by the just and most holy Wisdom of God.”

Since the chief topic of this constitution was that of indulgences, which depend on the “treasury of the Church” Paul VI put the redemption into that background. He said the “treasury of the Church is the infinite and inexhaustible price which the expiations and merits of Christ the Lord has before God....”

Simeon ben Eleazar, a Rabbi writing about 170 A.D. (Tosefta, Kiddushin 1. 14), and claiming to base himself on Rabbi Meir from earlier in the same century, gives us a striking comparison which helps to illustrate the text of Paul VI: “He [meaning “anyone”] has committed a transgression. Woe to him. He has tipped the scale to the side of debt for himself and for the world.”

The image is a two-pan scales. The sinner takes from one pan what he has no right to have. The scale is out of balance. The Holiness of God wants it righted. How do that? If he stole some property, he begins to rebalance by giving it back. If he stole a pleasure, he begins to rebalance by giving up some pleasure of similar weight.

But we kept saying “begins”. For the imbalance from even one mortal sin is infinite, an Infinite Person is offended. So if the Father wanted a full rebalance - He did not have to - the only way to achieve it would be to send a divine Person to become man. That Person could produce an infinite value. Paul VI put the redemption into this framework.

All sinners of all times took an immense weight from the two-pan scales. But Jesus gave up far more than they had stolen, in His terrible passion.

So this is the price of redemption, the rebalancing of the objective order, which the Holiness of God willed. Rom 5:8 said,”God proved His love.” Yes, if someone desires the well-being of another, and starts out to procure it, but then runs into an obstacle - if a small obstacle will stop him, the love is small. If it takes a great obstacle, the love is great. But if that love could overcome even the immense obstacle of the terrible death of Jesus, that love is immense, beyond measure. It was not only the physical pain, but the rejection by those whom He loved that hurt Him. The pain of rejection can be measured by two things: 1) how severe is the form of the rejection; 2) how great is the love for the one who is rejecting. If someone jostles me in a crowd, that is a small thing. But if he wanted to kill me, that is far worse, and if he means to do it in the most hideous way possible - then the rejection is at the peak . And what is His love?: Inasmuch as He is a Divine Person, the love is infinite; in as much as we consider the love of His human will, able to overcome such a measureless obstacle - the love is beyond measure.


47 posted on 03/15/2010 5:30:41 AM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl; Excellence; stfassisi
It seems to me God's justice is not to be had that cheaply. A truly penitent sinner is forgiven — but that does not cancel the sinner's obligation or restitution for wrongs caused by the sin. In other words, the Lord's Justice metes measure for measure

Then, I suppose, "your sins are forgiven " (absolution) and "their iniquities I will remember no more" is for naught. An eye for an eye, or, as you say, "measure for measure" is what "cheapens," that is if the NT is any measure at all.

Thus, "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."

The sinner is called to repentance and God promises forgiveness as I recall. Once forgiven, the believer is called to do unto others and he would have others do unto him. You do not forgive those who trespass against you by punishing them after forgiving them; you forgive others so that God may forgive you, or at least that's what I was taught.

But our respectful traditions differ in that regard, as both differ with regard to the Protestant way of looking at it.

52 posted on 03/15/2010 9:11:50 AM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: betty boop; kosta50; stfassisi; Quix
Thank you so very much for sharing your insights, dearest sister in Christ! And thank you for sharing your insights, dear kosta50!

betty boop:It seems to me God's justice is not to be had that cheaply. A truly penitent sinner is forgiven — but that does not cancel the sinner's obligation or restitution for wrongs caused by the sin. In other words, the Lord's Justice metes measure for measure. Thus, "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."

I perceive that when we forgive and forget the trespasses against us, God likewise forgives us.

However, that does not mean there will not be others accusing us before Him, of trespasses against them.

I perceive how we react to those accusations is important. I, for one, will not attempt to justify or excuse myself before God - or return fire. And, in this life, I will attempt to cure whatever injuries I have caused simply because it is the right thing to do.

However, I also know that I cannot possibly undo my wrongs or make the injured parties whole. I cannot make it not be true.

So I shall accuse no one before God. And when the accuser makes his complaint against me, I shall be silent and instead rest in God's justice and promises.

Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors...

God's Name is I AM.

53 posted on 03/15/2010 10:29:22 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl; Excellence; stfassisi
I don't read it that way, dear kosta. It seems to me God's justice is not to be had that cheaply

You don't give someone a gift and then make them pay for it. Salvation is by grace, an unmerited free gift. From the human perspective, God's justices is utterly unjust. Would you send an innocent man to jail, to be tortured and killed for the misdeeds of others, so that the guilty ones can go free, and call it "justice?"

Even from the juridical point of view, one does not grant a pardon and then makes the pardoned go back to jail for a little while longer!

64 posted on 03/15/2010 1:59:00 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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