Redemptive Suffering

http://www.thedefender.org/RedemptiveSuffering.html ^ | unknown | Fr. Yves Conger

[kosta50]

The fact that God elected them for salvation before the creation of the world does not mean they didn't need salvation

Why did they need salvation?

[armydoc]

Why did they need salvation?

OK, I'll play along. They need salvation because they are sinners and cannot save themselves.

[kosta50]

OK, I'll play along

I am not playing.

They need salvation because they are sinners and cannot save themselves

So, God devised the Fall, which ushered sin and death, then sent his Son to suffer and die for the sinners in order that the ones God wanted with him from the beginning for all eternity can be with him for all eternity?

[armydoc]

So, God devised the Fall, which ushered sin and death, then sent his Son to suffer and die for the sinners in order that the ones God wanted with him from the beginning for all eternity can be with him for all eternity?

No, God did not "devise" the fall but allowed it to happen and planned the "fix" from the beginning. The rest of your statement is pretty much accurate.

[Alamo-Girl]

Indeed. Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

[kosta50]

No, God did not "devise" the fall but allowed it to happen

That's odd, considering that he planted the tree and put the serpent there.

and planned the "fix" from the beginning

Then why did he allow it in the first place?

[armydoc]

That's odd, considering that he planted the tree and put the serpent there.

God allowed for the possibility of sin without "devising" it.

Then why did he allow it in the first place?

To help achieve His ultimate goal; the Glorification of Himself.

[kosta50]

God allowed for the possibility of sin without "devising" it

Possibility? Was God taking a "chance" or was he certain? If he devised the "Fix" from the beginning, it seems he devised the Fall as well.

[God allowed it] To help achieve His ultimate goal;

God needed sin to "help" [sic] him achieve his ultimate goal? And he was leaving that to a "possibility?"

[the goal being] the Glorification of Himself

God has "goals" and he needed sin to be able to glorify himself?

[armydoc]

I outlined my understanding of the relationship of God and evil (sin). I believe it is in line with Christian orthodoxy. I don’t have much desire to continue debating Christian orthodoxy with someone that “distrusts all supernatural claims”. Pearls before swine and all that.

[kosta50]

Figures.