Posted on 03/12/2010 6:50:06 PM PST by The Ignorant Fisherman
I had breakfast with Thomas Ice in the mid 90’s.. I totally believe he is Pre trib, despensational and has a ministry to that end. He is one of the strongs voices out there about this topic.
http://www.theignorantfishermen.com/2008/09/seven-years-to-day-part-1.html
True.... but... He was speaking to them as Jews not the church. The church was not yet conceived or founded to the day of Pentecost some 57 days later after the crucifixion and the rejection as a nation of their Messiah (Rom 9-11). The church was a mystery till that point. It was god’s ace in the hole after the Kingdom of Heaven was to be post pone because of Israel’s unbelief. Jesus refers to it a couple of times but to His disciples they were looking for the Kingdom of Heaven. That was John and Jesus’ message. So... when Jesus was talking to them he was talking as to the nation of Israel... also they as John the Baptist had a hard time comprehending the death and crucifixion of Christ (The upper room (John 12-17). and to boot…. Jesus… after His resurrection explained to them what would be.. And the things pertaining to the Kingdom of God (Acts 1-2) also He had given them Matt 13 (the mysteries of the Kingdom) to help explain what would be.
So…. The Lord was talking to them with the nation of Israel prominent… since the church was not yet established at this time. Jacobs’s trouble is a wake up call to repentance and faith for not just the world…but specifically Israel!
The Church and Israel are two different vessels of God’s for time. Israel is for all of the world’s earthly blessings (Rom 9-11) and the church is a spiritual one and the body of the Messiah of Israel (1 Cor. 12, Eph 1, Col 3:1-4)
God has a great future for Israel…. You will see in our next post!!
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
- 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
It is not unusual for some posttribulationists to think that they have fired a silver bullet which they believe destroys the possibility of the pretribulational rapture teaching. That shot is usually thought to be in the form of the argument relating to "the last trumpet" as found in 1 Corinthians 15:52. Even though some think they have found a slick and simple solution to the timing of the rapture, they fail to realize that the New Testament teaching concerning this issue is more sophisticated than that.
Scripture Or A Survival Guide?
I recall years ago meeting and talking with the late Jim McKeever at a Christian Book Sellers convention in the early 90s. He made the "last trumpet" argument to me at that time. Later I read his book entitled Christians Will Go Through The Tribulation.1 Judging from the title, I thought it would be a biblical treatise providing through reasoning to support the book's title. It was any thing but that! He basically presented a single argument, (the last trumpet argument), in just a few pages and drew the following conclusion:
If a Christian will put out of his mind all of his preconceived ideas about a Rapture occurring at the beginning of the Tribulation, and will look objectively at what the Scriptures have to say, I believe he will conclude that the Rapture will occur at the end of the Tribulation. 1 Corinthians 15 tells us that we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and that the dead will be raised at the "last trumpet." In Revelation, at the LAST trumpet we see the beginning of Christ's reign and the FIRST resurrection. Nothing could be simpler. There are no complications, if you accept the fact that the Rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation.2
First of all, I arrived at my pretribulational beliefs through the study of the Bible, thus, I am not going just put them out of my mind when I am challenged to examine the beliefs of others. I doubt the Bereans put their understanding of the Bible out of their minds when "they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so" (Acts 17:11). So we are to do just the opposite of what McKeever and others like him when they suggest that we approach any issue with an open mind. I do not want to be open-minded when examining issues, I want to be biblically-minded.
Second, we should not use a reductionist approach to Scripture, as McKeever suggests, when an issue involves a degree of sophistication. Such an approach is often used by opponents of the Trinity and the hypostatic union of Christ. If one applies a reductionist approach to Scripture in relation to the Trinity and the hypostatic union, it would only lead to heretical conclusions.
Third, McKeever frontloads his own approach to the matter by taking the phrase "last trumpet" and equating it with the seventh trumpet in Revelation (11:15-19). (This is an erroneous assumption that I will deal with later.) McKeever says, "A significant thing is that verse 52 tells us WHEN all of this will occur, and this "at the LAST trumpet... . It would then seem reasonable to turn to the book of Revelation to find out something about this 'last' trumpet."3
Other than a fraction of this single chapter, which very weakly argues for his "last trumpet" view, the rest of the book (17 chapters and about 350 pages) is a survival guide on how to make it alive through the tribulation. It just so happens that McKeever was a key player in the survivalist movement and he provides great detail, something lacking concerning His biblical arguments for posttribulationism, for how to prepare to survive the tribulation. I have often thought that if one really believes in posttribulationism, then, logically it should lead to survival preparation that would aid the church in going through the tribulation. I am sure that there are a few posttribulationists who have made some preparation, but such preparation appears to be generally lacking with those who hold this view.
Biblical Trumpets
Paul does teach in 1 Corinthians 15:52 that the rapture will take place at the last trumpet. Do posttribulationists like McKeever have a point or is there a better explanation that takes into account the whole counsel of God on this matter? How does Paul's last trumpet statement harmonize with pretribulationism?
Throughout the Bible there are a number of trumpets being blown. For example in Numbers 10 there are trumpets being used in order to give commands to the people of Israel. For example, a trumpet is used to assemble the people for their journey and another trumpet that signals the start of their journey. There were trumpet sounds that would tell the people to stop and another sound telling them to assemble. Depending upon whether the people were moving or getting ready to move, the last trumpet would signal them to move or if moving, a second last trumpet sound would tell them when to stop. So even in this context, for example, there are multiple "last trumpets."
Trumpets in Revelation
Some midtribulationists and posttribulationists attempt to equate the "last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians 15:52 with the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18. Revelation 11:15, does not say specifically "last trumpet." Instead, the Revelation passage says "the seventh angel sounded." The seventh trumpet is the seventh in a series of judgments. The seventh trumpet is the last in a series of trumpet judgments but it is not the last judgment in the series, seven more judgments (bowls) follow.
The "last trumpet" of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is singular, referring to one judgment, not a sequence of seven. Ellicott notes, "There are no sufficient grounds for supposing that there is here any reference to the seventh Apocalyptic trumpet (Rev. xi. 15), or to the seventh and last trumpet."4 Henry Thiessen agrees:
If he had thought of this trumpet as one of seven, he would undoubtedly have said something like the following: "For when the trumpets will be sounded and the time comes for the last one to sound, the dead in Christ shall be raised." At any rate, there is no ground for identifying the "trump" in 1 Cor. 15:52 with the seventh trumpet in Rev. 11:15. Those in the Revelation introduce fearful judgments upon the world and mankind; this one calls the dead in Christ out of their graves and summons both the ones raised and the believers still living into the Lord's presence.5
If the seventh trumpet in Revelation and the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 are supposed to be a reference to the same thing, then why are there many more months of judgment that follow the supposed last trumpet in Revelation 11. The view that equates the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 with the seventh trumpet of Revelation does not harmonize in any way.
1 Corinthians 15:52
The context of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is very different than the context of Revelation 11:15. 1 Corinthians 15:52 better harmonizes with 1 Thessalonians 4:16, which says, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first." Both passages speak of the rapture and judgment is absent from both. The trumpet in both are the last or final command that the Lord gives to the church, resulting in the translation of all Believers. Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost cites the following reasons as to why the "last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is different from any of the trumpet judgments in Revelation.
There seem to be a number of observations which make it impossible for one to identify these two trumps. (1) The trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, . . . sounds before the wrath of God descends, while, . . . the chronology or Revelation indicates that the trumpet in Revelation 11:15 sounds at the end of the time of wrath. . . . (2) The trumpet that summons the church is called the trump of God, while the seventh trump is an angel's trumpet. . . . (3) The trumpet for the church is singular. No trumpets have preceded it so that it can not be said to be the last of a series. The trumpet that closes the tribulation period is clearly the last of a series of seven. (4) In 1 Thessalonians 4 the voice associated with the sounding of the trumpet summons the dead and the living and consequently is heard before the resurrection. In the Revelation, while a resurrection is mentioned (11:12), the trumpet does not sound until after the resurrection, showing us that two different events must be in view. (5) The trumpet in 1 Thessalonians issues in blessing, in life, in glory, while the trumpet in Revelation issues in judgment upon the enemies of God. (6) In the Thessalonian passage the trumpet sounds "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." In Revelation 10:7 the indication is that the seventh trumpet shall sound over a continued period of time, probably for the duration of the judgments that fall under it, for John speaks of the angel that shall "begin to sound." . . . (7) The trumpet in 1 Thessalonians is distinctly for the church. Since God is dealing with Israel in particular, and Gentiles in general, in the tribulation, this seventh trumpet, which falls in the period of the tribulation, could not have reference to the church without losing the distinctions between the church and Israel. (8) The passage in Revelation depicts a great earthquake in which thousands are slain, and the believing remnant that worships God is stricken with fear. In the Thessalonian passage there is no earth quake mentioned. . . . (9) While the church will be rewarded at the time of the rapture, yet the reward given to "thy servants the prophets, and to the saints" can not be that event. The rewarding mentioned in Revelation 11:18 is seen to take place on the earth after the second advent of Christ, following the judgment on His enemies. Since the church is rewarded in the air, following the rapture, these must be two distinct events.6
Conclusion
The last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is the final command that Christ provides for His church when He sends the signal to gather us together for the meeting in the sky that we know as the rapture. The contexts of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and that of Revelation 11 are totally different from one another. About the only similarity between the two is that the word "trumpet" is used in both. (Actually the word "trumpet" is not even used in Revelation 11:15-19. The text actually says, "the seventh angel sounded" (11:15), clearly implying that a trumpet is sounded as noted in Revelation 8:2). The respective contexts are totally different. In 1 Corinthians 15:52, there is the context of things related to the church age, while Revelation 11 speaks of judgment during the tribulation. No such silver bullet argument exists for posttribulationism since I believe that it is clear that the New Testament does not teach such a view. Maranatha!
[1] Jim McKeever, Christians Will Go through the Tribulation: And How to Prepare for It (Medford, OR: Omega Publications, 1978).
[2] McKeever, Christians Will Go, pp. 45-46.
[3] McKeever, Christians Will Go, p. 36.
[4] Charles J. Ellicott, St. Paul's First Epistle to the Corinthians: With a Critical and Grammatical Commentary (Minneapolis: The James Family Christian Publishers, [1887]), p. 325.
[5] Henry C. Thiessen, Will the Church Pass Through the Tribulation? (New York: Loizeaux Brothers, 1941), p. 56.
[6] J. Dwight Pentecost, Things To Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1958), pp. 189-91.
Jump right in!! the waters warm!!
That’s funny that you mentioned David Jeremiah... the Lord used that man and some others and that series “Escape the Coming Night” as a catalyst to bring me to Christ! (in 1992) also to get me fired up about the coming of Christ. It wasn’t until I read his book that I saw that Christ was indeed coming back etc...
As a matter of fact as a Catholic I never once heard or was taught that teaching of Christ second coming even though we repeated unconsciously in the mass... Christ has died, Christ has risen...Christ will come again... or in the Apostles creed “He will come again in Glory to Judge the Living and the dead.
I just decided to let God and His Word be my only source of info on what Christianity etc.. I have spent countless hours studying God’s wonderful Word and He has truly blessed my heart.. I’ve been saved since 1991 ish..
David is some what new evangelical...but he is right on... and I like him... Go and learn and be a servant of Christ, for His glory.. If I can be of any help feel free to contact me via FR email or The Ignorant fishermen email.
The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!!
Here are a couple of links of my testimony.
http://www.theignorantfishermen.com/2009/08/they-sold-their-souls-to-rock-and-roll.html
http://www.theignorantfishermen.com/2009/09/one-i-thought-i-knew.html
no offence... but your not looking hard enough... It’s in there...
What donomination are you? LSD?
had breakfast with Thomas Ice in the mid 90’s.. I totally believe he is Pre trib, despensational and has a ministry to that end. He is one of the strongs voices out there about this topic.
Absolutely so... and see the following about Dr. Thomas Ice ...
In 1991 Dr. Tim LaHaye became concerned about a perceived swaying from the pretribulational doctrine. In 1992 Dr. LaHaye released his book on the rapture: No Fear of the Storm from Multnomah Press. It was re-released in 1998 as Rapture Under Attack. In the process of preparing the first edition of his rapture book, Dr. LaHaye was impressed with the gatherings of the Albury Park and Powerscourt Conference in Britain during the late 1820s and early 1830s where leaders gathered to discuss issues relating to Bible prophecy. Dr. LaHaye contacted Dr. Thomas Ice and discussed the possibility of calling a similar meeting for December 1992. This meeting came about in Dallas with about 35 top prophecy scholars, authors, and populists participating in the three-day event. The group adopted the title of The Pre-Trib Study Group (PTSG). Dr. LaHaye was elected Chairman of the steering committee and Dr. Ice Vice Chairman.
At the next year's meeting, December 1993 in Dallas, The PTSG elected Dr. Ice to become full-time Executive Director of the newly formed Pre-Trib Research Center (PTRC). The PTRC was conceived by Dr. LaHaye for the purpose of encouraging the research, teaching, propagation, and defense of the pretribulational rapture and related Bible prophecy doctrines. PTRC began functioning in the offices of Dr. LaHaye's Family Life Seminars in Washington, D.C. in March 1994. PTRC has sponsored the annual PTSG meeting in December of each year and just completed its seventh such meeting in 1999.
The Pre-Trib Research Center has over 200 members in association with its efforts. Most of the top prophecy scholars, authors, and popularizes are members of the Center and Study Group. The association of these prophecy experts, which have been facilitated by the Pre-Trib organization, has contributed to the inspiration of dozens of books, articles, conferences, and events that express and defend the literal interpretation of Bible prophecy and the pre-trib rapture. PTRC and the Study Group have worked to bring together veteran prophecy experts to share their knowledge and encouragement concerning these matters to a younger generation of students and advocates. In this way the torch is being passed to a new generation.
Dr. LaHaye and Dr. Ice, along with others associated with PTRC, have produced an impressive amount of literature that further the cause of pretribulationism and the literal interpretation of Bible prophecy. The PTRC is also involved in speaking at prophecy conferences and churches, producing key audio tapes, and now with the advent of this Internet site, providing various materials here as well. PTRC has published over the years its monthly publication called the Pre-Trib Perspectives and has various other future goals.
PTRC wants to impact Pastors and individual Christians with the central role and importance that Bible prophecy, especially the any-moment possibility of the rapture, should play in the life of the church. Dr. LaHaye and PTRC stresses three practical implications that flow from the rapture teaching. The first implication of pretribulationism is that it leads to godly living in an unholy age. Next, this New Testament teaching promotes a strong emphasis upon evangelism of the lost. Finally, when believers come to understand this eternal perspective, it leads to a zeal for worldwide missions. This is why we at the PTRC are "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." (Titus 2:13)
My dear friend.. no offence... but you are drinking the Demonic Kool aid... and twisting bible verses quite well John 8:44
The Bible repeatedly repeats Salvation is not of works....
If you are a broken egg... how can you make your self a perfect one... by your “works” good luck...
(Romans 3:23, 5:1 10:24)
http://www.theignorantfishermen.com/2009/06/just-broken-egg.html
"For then shall beTo recap:
1) great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.* For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
2) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the
3) Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and
4) they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
--Matthew 24
1. ...then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.Now let's boil it down a bit more so we don't get lost in all the words (notice that I didn't overuse capital letters):
2. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened...
3. ...then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
4. ...he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1. Great tribulation such as has never been seen or will be seen.And now again:
2. Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven, seen by everyone on earth.
3. Sound of trumpet and angels collecting elect throughout the earth.
1. Great tribulation.Compare it with your statement above: The rapture of the church, the body of Christ, must precede the tribulation in order that all of God's Word be fulfilled. According to Jesus's own word (such as Paul claimed), you've got events exactly backwards.
2. Jesus returns.
3. Trumpet sounded. (see 1 Corinthians 15:52).
4. Angels sent.
5. Believers gathered. (see 1 Corinthians 15:23)
It is simple my friend because it takes no though... i know i practice it for 24 years...
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Tim 3:16
Have you ever study God’s Word? I do not believe that you have... I would like to challenge you to ... and see for your self. Just let God’s Word be God’s Word and then you will see.
http://www.theignorantfishermen.com/2009/04/take-gospel-of-john-challenge.html
He’s a soldier for dispensationalism and Pre trib etc...
I was just a young new believer, He spoke at one of our conferences in “94 or 95”
The Ignorant Fisherman wrote:
“It is simple my friend because it takes no though... i know i practice it for 24 years...”
I assume you meant to say “thought.” So, yes, I agree with you. It takes no thought, only faith. Not only does God never lie to me or anyone, He never contradicts Himself, He never forgets what He has said and promised, and so He never gave us His Word so that we can amuse ourselves by setting one part of Scripture against another. And, yes, I have studied God’s Word for a while, despite your presumptive judgment to the contrary.
Good afternoon guys.
I hope to write up a couple of posts on this, this afternoon.
Star Traveler may remember me, but I am probably new to you, Ignorant Fisherman.
I had a private lunch with Dr. Fruchtenbaum about 3 or 4 years ago. We went to Red Lobster...it didn't even occur to me that he was a Jew...but he had shrimp, IIRC.
:>)
I agree with about 95% of what Dr. F. writes, but not all of it. Dr. F. kinda comes (teaches) from a standpoint of favoring Jews. I don't know if I can (or even should) fault him for that, but it seemed that way to me.
I asked him if he thought there were going to be ANY faith (believers) on Earth when Jesus returns (2nd coming) and he, without hesitating, said, "Yes! The Jews!"
In other words, he didn't believe that there was going to be a single Gentile Saint alive on earth when Jesus returns...only Jews who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. (IE:144,000).
He may be right, for I also believe that there won't be a single Gentile Saint alive on the earth when Jesus returns.
Dr. Thomas Ice
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
- 2 Thessalonians 2:3
I believe that there is a strong possibility that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated "apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated "departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.
The Meaning of Apostasia
The Greek noun apostasia is only used twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21 where, speaking of Paul, it is said, "that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses." The word is a Greek compound of apo "from" and istemi "stand." Thus, it has the core meaning of "away from" or "departure." The Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon defines apostasia first as "defection, revolt;" then secondly as "departure, disappearance."1 Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure in the following:
The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament of apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21), we can hardly conclude that its Biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8;13; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb 3:12). The word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19), from ungodly men (1 Tim. 6:5), from the temple (Luke 2:27), from the body (2Cor. 12:8), and from persons (Acts 12:10; Luke 4:13).2
"It is with full assurance of proper exegetical study and with complete confidence in the original languages, "concludes Daniel Davey, "that the word meaning of apostasia is defined as departure."3 Paul Lee Tan adds the following:
What precisely does Paul mean when he says that "the falling away" (2:3) must come before the tribulation? The definite article "the" denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for "falling away", taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean "to fall," as the Greeks have another word for that. [pipto, I fall; TDI] The best translation of the word is "to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls "the departure," and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the rapture of the church.4
So the word has the core meaning of departure and it depends upon the context to determine whether it is used to mean physical departure or an abstract departure such as departure from the faith.
Translation History
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either "departure" or "departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).5 This supports the notion that the word truly means "departure." In fact, Jerome's Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.A. 400 renders apostasia with the "word discessio, meaning 'departure.'"6 Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure"?
Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as "falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as "departure." No good reason was ever given.
The Use of the Article
It is important to note that Paul uses a definite article with the noun apostasia. What does this mean? Davey notes the following:
Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article reference is being made to something in particular. In II Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.7
Dr. Lewis provides a likely answer when he notes that the definite article serves to make a word distinct and draw attention to it. In this instance he believes that its purpose is "to denote a previous reference." "The departure Paul previously referred to was 'our being gathered to him' (v. 1) and our being 'caught up' with the Lord and the raptured dead in the clouds (1 Thess. 4:17)," notes Dr. Lewis.8 The "departure" was something that Paul and his readers clearly had a mutual understanding about. Paul says in verse 5, "Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?" The use of the definite article would also support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernable event. A physical departure, like the rapture would fit just such a notion. However, the New Testament teaches that apostasy had already arrived in the first century (cf. Acts 20:27-32; 1 Tim. 4:1-5; 2 Tim. 3:1-9; 2 Pet. 2:1-3; Jude 3-4, 17-21) and thus, such a process would not denote a clear event as demanded by the language of this passage. Understanding departure as the rapture would satisfy the nuance of this text. E. Schuyler English explains as follows:
Again, how would the Thessalonians, or Christians in any century since, be qualified to recognize the apostasy when it should come, assuming, simply for the sake of this inquiry, that the Church might be on earth when it does come? There has been apostasy from God, rebellion against Him, since time began.9
Whatever Paul is referring to in his reference to "the departure," was something that both the Thessalonian believers and he had discussed in-depth previously. When we examine Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, he never mentions the doctrine of apostasy, however, virtually every chapter in that epistle speaks of the rapture (cf. 1:9-10; 2:19; probably 3:13; 4:13-17; 5:1-11). In these passages, Paul has used a variety of Greek terms to describe the rapture. It should not be surprising that he uses another term to reference the rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Dr. House tells us:
Remember, the Thessalonians had been led astray by the false teaching (2:2-3) that the Day of the Lord had already come. This was confusing because Paul offered great hope, in the first letter, of a departure to be with Christ and a rescue from god's wrath. Now a letter purporting to be from Paul seems to say that they would first have to go through the Day of the Lord. Paul then clarified his prior teachingby emphasizing that they had no need to worry. They could again be comforted because the departure he had discussed in his first letter, and in his teaching while with them, was still the truth. The departure of Christians to be with Christ, and the subsequent revelation of the lawless one, Paul argues, is proof that the Day of the Lord had not begun as they had thought. This understanding of apostasia makes much more sense than the view that they are to be comforted (v. 2) because a defection from the faith must precede the Day of the Lord. The entire second chapter (as well as 1 Thessalonians 4:18; 5:11) serves to comfort (see vv. 2, 3, 17), supplied by a reassurance of Christ's coming as taught in his first letter.10
Departure and The Restrainer
Since pretribulationists believe that the restrainer mentioned in verses 6 and 7 is the Holy Spirit and teaches a pre-trib rapture, then it should not be surprising to see that there is a similar progression of thought in the progression of verse 3. Allan MacRae, president of Faith Theological Seminary in a letter to Schuyler English has said the following concerning this matter:
I wonder if you have noticed the striking parallel between this verse and verses 7-8, a little further down. According to your suggestion verse 3 mentions the departure of the church as coming first, and then tells of the revealing of the man of sin. In verses 7 and 8 we find the identical sequence. Verse 7 tells of the removal of the Church; verse 8 says: "And then shall that Wicked be revealed." Thus close examination of the passage shows an inner unity and coherence, if we take the word apostasia in its general sense of "departure," while a superficial examination would easily lead to an erroneous interpretation as "falling away" because of the proximity of the mention of the man of sin.11
Kenneth Wuest, a Greek scholar from Moody Bible Institute added the following contextual support to taking apostasia as a physical departure:
But then hee apostasia of which Paul is speaking, precedes the revelation of Antichrist in his true identity, and is to katechon that which holds back his revelation (2:6). The hee apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom which does precede the coming of Antichrist, nor can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (vs. 3) is vitally connected with hookatechoon (vs. 7), He who holds back the same event. The latter is, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit and His activities in the Church. All of which means that I am driven to the inescapable conclusion that the hee apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord, and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period.12
Conclusion
The fact that apostasia most likely has the meaning of physical departure is a clear support for pretribulationism. If this is true, (Dr. Tim LaHaye and I believe that it is), then it means that a clear prophetic sequence is laid out by Paul early in his Apostolic ministry. Paul teaches in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the rapture will occur first, before the Day of the Lord commences. It is not until after the beginning of the Day of the Lord that the Antichrist is released, resulting in the events described by him in chapter 2 of 2 Thessalonians. This is the only interpretation that provides hope for a discomforted people. Maranatha!
Endnotes
[1] Henry George Liddell and Henry Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Revised with a Supplement [1968] by Sir Henry Stuart Jones and Roderick McKenzie (Oxford, Eng.: Oxford University Press, 1940), p. 218.
[2] Gordon R. Lewis, "Biblical Evidence for Pretribulationism," Bibliotheca Sacra (vol. 125, no. 499; July 1968), p. 218.
[3] Daniel K. Davey, "The 'Apostesia' of II Thessalonians 2:3," Th.M. thesis, Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary, May 1982, p. 27.
[4] Paul Lee Tan, The Interpretation of Prophecy (Winona Lake, IN: Assurance Publishers, 1974), p. 341.
[5] H. Wayne House, "Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3: Apostasy or Rapture?" in Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, eds., When the Trumpet Sounds: Today's Foremost Authorities Speak Out on End-Time Controversies (Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 1995), p. 270.
[6] House, "Apostesia", p. 270.
[7] Davey, "Apostesia", p. 47.
[8] Gordon R. Lewis & Bruce A. Demarest, Integrative Theology 3 vols in 1 (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996), vol. 3,p. 420.
[9] E. Schuyler English, Re-Thinking the Rapture (Neptune, NJ: Loizeaux Brothers, 1954), p. 70.
[10] House, "Apostesia", pp. 275-76.
[11] Allan A. MacRae, Letter to E. Schuyler English, published in "Let the Prophets Speak," Our Hope, (vol. LVI, num. 12; June 1950), p. 725.
[12] Kenneth S. Wuest, Letter to E. Schuyler English, published in "Let the Prophets Speak," Our Hope, (vol. LVI, num. 12; June 1950), p. 731.
Well thank you very much for getting back with me. Very interesting testimony and great post. There are so many false teachings surfacing I always try to verify things are scriptural when I see articles and hear preaching.
Yes, Dr. Jeremiah is a wonderful teacher and his strongest area (imho) is prophecy..although he doesn’t use the KJV, I’ve never seen him fall out of line with it. As I had said he is teaching (it’s been aired before) Revelation, verse by verse and it is from that series ‘Escape the Coming Night’. He also made a series called ‘The Handwriting on the Wall’ around 1991/92, that you may not have heard of since that was around the time of your internal battle. It is on the Book of Daniel and goes hand in hand with Revelation. Anyway, I’m listening to that as well and it is absolutely fascinating and is even more clear than when it originally aired in ‘91/92.
We are at the threshold of His coming. He’s been ‘knocking’ at my heart for the past 3 years and it took a major shake up in February to get my attention and focus back. He’s moving and talking like never before:
“I am the Good Shephard, and know my sheep, and am known of mine” John 10:14 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand” John 10:27,28
I truly look forward to building a good exchange with you and the posters on your threads.
Thx again I.F.
He may be right, for I also believe that there won't be a single Gentile Saint alive on the earth when Jesus returns.
Well, to me, the Sheep and Goat judgment argues against that idea. There is that judgment of the nations as to how they treated the Jews.
So, that very thing (of that judgment) argues (for me, anyway) that there are Gentiles (and Gentile nations) who are judged for their treatment of the Jews during the Tribulation.
I sorta disagree with Thomas Ice here (if I read the article correctly?)
The apostasy in 2 Thess 2:3 is NOT the rapture.
I (briefly) taught a Bible study using Mr. Ice and Mr. Lahaye's study materials and they tried to make the claim that the Apostasy in 2 Thess 2:3 is "the Rapture".
I disagree.
They used some VERY weak reasoning and they did not compare scripture with scripture. They used the ROOT word of apostasia, rather than quoting the only other reference to the Greek word in the NT:
Please note that the only other time this word is used in the NT is in Acts 21:21:
Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
In other words, the word apostasia is NEVER used as a good thing in the NT...it is always BAD.
It means a falling away, defection.
Not a good thing.
Perhaps we could say, "divorce"?
Apostasia is the feminine of the word apostasion, and apostasion means divorce.
Ice and Lahaye take it further down to the root word:
aphistēmi which means remove, withdraw, etc.
Still, in each of these words, it seems the "departER" is responsible/performing the act of departing as opposed to be being TAKEN by someone else.
SO...I disagree with Ice and LaHaye on this use of the word in 2 Thess. 2:3.
IN FACT:
I discovered that they even have a CHART in their study materials (in the very same book!) that agrees with me...so they end up contradicting themselves.
FWIW: I like quite a bit of what LaHaye and Ice write, but on this point, I disagree and it does my (our?) cause no good at all to use such a shaky foundation.
There are plenty of other references in the NT for the Rapture, but 2 Thess. 2:3 is not describing the rapture, it is describing what must happen BEFORE the rapture...two things that must happen FIRST.
I don’t know, ST...it seems to me that this judgment comes at the end of the Millennium?
Question: "What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?"
Answer: The rapture and the second coming of Christ are often confused. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a scripture verse is referring to the rapture or the second coming. However, in studying end-times Bible prophecy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.
The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.
The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:
1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17).
2) At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).3) The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
3) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19).4) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9).
5) The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).6) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
7) The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).8) The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
9) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18).
Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?
1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).
3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).
The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences.
In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.
[Some changes to formatting of article, but all wording is the same...]
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