Posted on 03/12/2010 6:50:06 PM PST by The Ignorant Fisherman
It might be more accurate to say there are believers on earth through and after the Great Tribulation. Not necessarily the Body of Christ or the Church.
The Church is clearly understood to be those believers in the Church Age who are characterized as being indwelt by all three persons of the Godhead.
When the Restrainer is removed, this might be the case that there are believers, but not indwelt by God the Holy Spirit.
“in which about 1.5 million Jews were killed by the Romans. That’s what they were to escape.
“ —> Quite right. And the destruction of Jerusalem freed Christianity from being a Jewish sect. Until that time, The Church in Jerusalem was the doctrinal head, looking down on Paul’s conversion of the gentiles and was a heavy Judaising influence (circumscion, etc.). With the destruction of Jerusalem, that changed. The 1000 year period ended with Islam coming with it’s false prophet worshipping the dragon (Allah) and their holy sign 786.
Paul spoke 'street' Greek and NOT Latin. What does this word mean in the language Paul spoke/wrote it given the subject is where are the dead as noted in IThessalonians 4:13.
Paul contradicts himself later then because in ICorinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the *last* (that would be the 7th) trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Christ's return is described as a thief in the night, now why would that be? Could it be because the majority believe He was already here and was not 'waiting' for His return... That would create a mighty embarrassing tribulation to have already attended a fake wedding.
The chapter basically opens up (in verse 5) with talk about the Temple and how beautiful it was. Jesus immediately says that the days are coming in which not one stone will be left on one another. We know (nowadays) that He was talking about 70 A.D. Of course, the disciples didn't know that and they were listening. He continues talking about that time of 70 A.D.
Luke Chapter 21 5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 6 "These things which you see--the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."
So, they ask Jesus, about "not one stone shall be left upon another".... as to "when will these things be?" And now Jesus goes into it for them...
7 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" 8 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them. 9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately." 10 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls.
Now Jesus gives them a critical sign for the coming 70 A.D. destruction...
20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
It was right here that many Christians of that time were able to esacpe before the destruction, from Jesus' warnings. The Christians knew about this coming ahead of time, and many of them did escape beforehand. But, the Jews who were ignorant of Jesus' teachings and/or ignored them, they stayed and were killed (or many of them were killed).
Now, in verse 24, there's a "segue" involved... :-)
Jesus "transitions" from 70 A.D. -- all the way out to the end of the "times of the Gentiles". Now we're hearing about "the end" and when Jesus comes to set up the Kingdom, after the "times of the Gentiles" are completed.
25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."
Jesus goes into a parable about how to recognize the time of His coming to set up His Kingdom.
29 Then He spoke to them a parable: "Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.
And now He makes clear that these things happening just before the time of Jesus setting up the Kingdom on this earth -- will happen in a generation. In other words, when it starts happening (at the end of the Times of the Gentiles), it will all happen quickly, during the time of just one generation.
32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Now Jesus comes back to the disciples who are sitting in front of him, probably shocked and spellbound and listening intently. And Jesus brings it "back to the present" where He's sitting, right now talking to them. And He says to His disciples...
34 "But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."
His disciples, who are sitting in front of Him, listening -- are the ones who are going to see the destruction in 70 A.D. so they need to follow Jesus' instructions regarding this.
But, in that message to His disciples, we also got a message to us, in the future, who are coming up on the end of the "Times of the Gentiles"...
So, don't confuse what is for us today and what was for the disciples who were sitting in front of Him at the time. :-)
“When the Restrainer is removed, this might be the case that there are believers, but not indwelt by God the Holy Spirit.”
Your interpretation hinges on the term “Restrainer” which you take to mean the Holy Spirit. I would submit to you that the verse which speaks of the restrainer is not speaking of the Holy Spirit, but of God ordained secular authorities which will be swept out of the way to make room for the reign of Lucifer.
Lucifer has slipped two false doctrines into the Church...he’s real sneaky.
The first one will turn this verse into reality
“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils...” 1 Timothy 4:1
and then there is this-—
“Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being assembled to meet him ... Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion [in the original greek: apostasy - ‘great falling away’] comes first, and the lawless [one] is revealed, the son of perdition...” 2 Thess 2:1,3
So the pre-trib Rapture and “Once Saved Always Saved” positions point us to just exactly how Lucifer plans to defeat the Church, at least in part.
Current day Israel is the Lord’s way of getting our attention....His Signpost that we are at the doorway of the “biblical last days”.
______________________
I won’t argue my position, those who are truely hungry for the TRUTH will find it.
Praise His Name
I’m curious to what your background is, if you don’t mind my inquiry.
I recently resumed attending church regularly after sliding for the past 10 years and began because I feel the Lord speaking to my heart and because I believe the ‘time’ is at hand.
Currently, Dr. David Jeremiah (from Shadow Mountain Community Church, San Diego) is running a series on Revelation...a verse by verse study. It just started last week for anyone interested.
Anyway, I don’t mean to jump in but I’ve seen this blog before and just wondered what type of background you have.
” Now Jesus comes back to the disciples who are sitting in front of him, probably shocked and spellbound and listening intently. And Jesus brings it “back to the present” where He’s sitting, right now talking to them. And He says to His disciples...
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with
carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on
you unexpectedly.
35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of
the whole earth.”
+++++++++++++++
Friend, consider this, what he is warning them of is an event that, “will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth”
That can not describe the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
It is a world-wide catastrophe to which he is referring.
2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 has your answer.
Thank you.
Paul spoke 'street' Greek and NOT Latin. What does this word mean in the language Paul spoke/wrote it given the subject is where are the dead as noted in IThessalonians 4:13.
He wasn't explaining what language Paul spoke... LOL ... he was explaining where the "term" came from... which was from the Latin Vulgate.
In the original it means "snatched up" and also "by force" ...
There's a "discussion" of this in a theological paper I was reading a while back, and it goes into this in pretty good detail in the original languages. I'll try to find it for you... :-)
Paul contradicts himself later then because in ICorinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Right there, when you assume that a "given writer" of Scripture contradicts himself... that's an immediate problem. Contradictions don't happen in the Word of God, since they are Scripture is all from God and the human writers are only God's tools to put forth His Word, in the Bible, for us to read. There are no contradictions with God. There are only misunderstandings that we personally have, that appear to be contradictions. Once we understand what God means, we find no contradiction.
See the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy on that topic (in its "affirmations" and "denials").
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the *last* (that would be the 7th) trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
That's a common assumption with some who read about that "last trump". However, from what I read from Jewish people some recognize that (from their Jewish perspective) as the last Trump on the Feast of Trumpets. In fact, the phrase about not knowing the day or hour is used for the Feast of Trumpets and any Jewish person (of that day) would have recognized that phrase in connection with the Feast of Trumpets.
So, the 7th trumpet of Revelation (which was penned by John) is not the "last trump" of Paul's writing (or of Jewish understanding).
In fact, if you count your understanding as #1, and then what I said as #2, there is also a #3 there, too... but I would have to get that one out and review it for a fuller explanation. I just remember that there is a third explanation for that last trump.
Christ's return is described as a thief in the night, now why would that be? Could it be because the majority believe He was already here and was not 'waiting' for His return... That would create a mighty embarrassing tribulation to have already attended a fake wedding.
It's described as returning as a thief on the night because there are no prophetic signs that the Bible gives as preceding the Rapture. But, there are prophetics signs that are given preceding Jesus, returning to earth as the Messiah of Israel to set up the Kingdom on this earth. In fact, one real easy "prophetic sign" for the time of Jesus' return to set up the kingdom is from the time that the Antichrist stops the sacrifices and declares himself to be God, in the Temple in Jerusalme, there is exactly 1,260 days to the return of Jesus to set up the Kingdom. There's no surprise or a "thief in the night" on that one... LOL... we know exactly when Jesus is returning once we see the Antichrist (whomeever sees it) -- it's exactly 1,260 days later.
But, the Rapture has no prophetic sign preceding it happening. That "is" like a thief in the night. But, we are to wait "expectantly" for that to happen at any time. That's what we are told, and for good reason.
See Post #26 for the Doctrine of Imminency... :-)
Ephraim the Syrian said, in 373 AD, “For all the saints and the Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”
Quite a few early Church Fathers before Origen taught and premised a pretrib rapture. Go Figure.
Friend, consider this, what he is warning them of is an event that, “will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth” That can not describe the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
He was definitely talking to His disciples about 70 A.D. -- and -- he was also talking about the end of the Times of the Gentiles -- both in that entire passage that I gave you, and you can see where He shifts from one to the other.
And you don't take those things, as when Jesus is talking directly to His disciples out of the context of what Jesus was doing exactly at that moment. He was talking directly to His disciples and they were not going to be alive at the end of the Times of the Gentiles.
So, Jesus has shifted from 70 A.D. to the end of the Times of the Gentiles and He comes back to His disciples who are sitting in front of Him. As I said, this is not some esoteric and "detached" paragraph (detached from "reality") but it was given directly to them.
And when Jesus closes up His talk with them, He comes right back to them in the present (present for them, which was a while before 70 A.D.), because it was them who asked Him this question about the Temple in the first place.
Some might also consider this prophetic passage (about the things to come) a "near" and "far" prophecy, in which it does find fulfillment in "near-time events" and "far-time events". Some do take that position on parts of this prophecy. I don't necessarily do that, but some do, and I only mention it here, because you seem to think it has a "far-time fulfillment" in that particular verse. I don't ...
So, have you yet learned the role of the characters Jesus told about in the Good Samaritan story?
Are they being raptured? LOL ...
WSell, I was just wondering where you suddenly became such a Bible scholar since just a few weeks ago you didn’t know whom was the Good Samaritan and when called on it tried to cover it up.
I’ve been on the Rapture threads for ages... going all the way back to when I first started on Free Republic (about 1999)... that’s nothing new for me... :-)
Perhaps we should start a Good Samaritan thread, so you can get up to speed on that teaching from Jesus.
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