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To: Ken4TA

Two things in which you are a bit off, one serious, the other less so. First, there is no such thing as an unbeliever in the church, not at least under the definition I clearly gave. The church is the sum total of the followers of Christ, whether those in the church militant, here on earth, or the church triumphant, in heaven. There are no unbelievers here. You may have in mind the visible church, that is to say, that which we can all see, those who for whatever reason associate themselves with the church of Jesus Christ. Or to put it in another way, in the visible church are wheat and tares both. But only the wheat is that which belongs to Christ, the rest will be burned up. Christ knows which is which, we as we look at the visible church do not. To sum up, the visible church and the true church are not the same thing, and they are distinguished in the Scriptures the one from the other.

Second, your expressed (an maybe you misstated yourself) understanding of Matthew 16:18 is not right. It is saying the same as, for example, Matthew 28:18-20. And there are many other passages as well. The church that Christ has established will never be absent from the earth until Christ Himself brings the earth to an end. Nor, conversely, will Christ absent Himself from His church on earth. He will not, as John quoted Him saying, leave His disciples orphans. That is why one should be cautioned in using, for example, the term “restoration.” That is the language of Joseph Smith, not of the Holy, Christian Church throughout her history.

It is important to define terms and agree on what Scripture does and does not say at every point, or the danger you point out will surely be realized, that is, the lines of error and true which start out so close together will diverge enormously.


19 posted on 03/01/2010 2:37:49 PM PST by Belteshazzar
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To: Belteshazzar
Two things in which you are a bit off, one serious, the other less so. First, there is no such thing as an unbeliever in the church, not at least under the definition I clearly gave.

Hmmm...I didn't see that in what you wrote. Maybe you should be a little more clear.

The church is the sum total of the followers of Christ, whether those in the church militant, here on earth, or the church triumphant, in heaven. There are no unbelievers here. You may have in mind the visible church, that is to say, that which we can all see, those who for whatever reason associate themselves with the church of Jesus Christ.

I don't worry about the makeup of the invisible church, the church whose members only God knows. What I do have in mind is the church that is plainly visible in front of your eyes. This "visible" church contains both the members of the "invisible" church and the "visible" church. They both grow together until the return of Jesus the Christ of God.

Second, your expressed (an maybe you misstated yourself) understanding of Matthew 16:18 is not right.

It isn't? Then how about you correcting it? I'm anxious to see how you defend your position.

The church that Christ has established will never be absent from the earth until Christ Himself brings the earth to an end.

Whose is denying that?

Nor, conversely, will Christ absent Himself from His church on earth. He will not, as John quoted Him saying, leave His disciples orphans. That is why one should be cautioned in using, for example, the term “restoration.” That is the language of Joseph Smith, not of the Holy, Christian Church throughout her history.

And then you said: "It is important to define terms," which you seem to do with the term "restoration" - equating it with a well-known religion designed somewhat like the one you belong to. What a divisive statement: " That is the language of Joseph Smith." Actually, I should have ignored that definition you attempted to lay on those who would like to restore originality to the church.

20 posted on 03/01/2010 2:58:08 PM PST by Ken4TA (The truth sometimes hurts - but is truth nonetheless!)
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