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To: Persevero

Not being a Calvinist myself, this is very confusing to me. If one is predestined, despite how they live their lives or what they profess, what is this “means” you refer to? It seems fatalistic to me. I might as well live a debauched and “more fun” life, since it ultimately has no bearing on the outcome anyhow. If I’m wrong, please explain in terms a child could understand.


7 posted on 02/28/2010 3:49:36 PM PST by RedDogzRule ("Trees have no dogmas. Turnips are singularly broad-minded." - G. K. Chesterton)
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To: RedDogzRule

“If I’m wrong, please explain in terms a child could understand.”

If God elected you to salvation before the foundation of the world, you will believe in Christ and bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Calvinists neither teach nor believe that anyone living in sin is a Christian.

That is a common misconception.

We just believe that God is the one who is the first cause of our salvation. We love Him because He first loved us.

Some verses to consider:

1 John 4:19

We love Him because He first loved us.

Romans 8:28-30. Really, all of Romans 8 is good.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom he called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


13 posted on 02/28/2010 4:07:49 PM PST by Persevero (Satan tries to separate what God puts together and join together what God separates.)
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To: RedDogzRule
The Predestinarian concepts arose in the time before quantum physics.

I suspect Calvin would take a look at what happens to a niobium sphere at absolute zero, pour a little Helium 3 on it, and revise some of his notions ~ not that niobium spheres and Helium 3 serve as substitutes for Divine Inspiration, but maybe they are!

Did you realize how expensive that stuff is?

22 posted on 02/28/2010 4:52:41 PM PST by muawiyah ("Git Out The Way")
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To: RedDogzRule
Hi RedDogz,

Yes Calvinists do believe that saved souls will endure in their faith to the end.

If an atheist for example, claims that he was a former "Born-Again Christian," the Calvinist Christian concludes that his conversion was never genuine in the first place. He was never truly "born again."

Calvinists also believe in sanctification, meaning there should be a visible change in one's life following conversion. One's faith should bear visible fruit: good works. The good works do not save you, but they are evidences of one's faith. Evidence of one's new birth in Christ.

HOWEVER, notice just because one endures in faith till the end, does not mean, one will be reach 100% perfection in this life. That's why we can't ever judge the state of someone's soul just by their actions. Sometimes, the nicest, "well-behaved" person might not be saved at all. Whereas, the Bible gives examples of God's chosen ones failing miserably: King David, for example, committed murder and adultery and this was while he was a believer. PETER, Jesus' closest and most trusted disciple, denied Christ THREE times before the public at his trial preceding His crucifixion. Neither David nor Peter lost their salvation though.

One can tell that David and Peter were still in the faith by understanding the nature of their repentance. They did not repent out of mere discomfort or guilt, even Judas-the-traitor felt guilt--but the Bible clearly states Judas went to hell. His was a selfish, fleshly guilt. David and Peter had holy guilt. They were horrified about having betrayed and hurt the GOD they love.

So yes, true believers--will sin, will fall--some more visibly than others--but they will endure in faith. The Holy Spirit sustains all believers to the end.

33 posted on 02/28/2010 11:42:34 PM PST by CondoleezzaProtege (When I survey the wondrous cross...)
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