Posted on 02/28/2010 1:53:01 PM PST by NYer
Yes.
Requiring incredible evidence is a sign of wavering faith, but Biblical faith is not one that has no evidence, but like getting marriage, salvific faith is a step based upon evidence sufficient to warrant it. Abraham did not become a convert thru Baker’s Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics, useful as that can be, and the miraculous changes which result when a soul becomes born again and continues in the faith testify to a cause which upon close examination overall can defy known natural explanations. Rational souls do not write thousands of hymns about Jesus because they are imagining things, and radical changes in heart that where sought in vain, but resulted when a soul simply prayed a contrite prayer to Jesus, ought to make an unbeliever at least be open to the possibility of God.
As for NDE’s, there is much research by secularists that make it very hard to deny life after death, at the least. I think these links still work.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=near+death+experiences+habermas&sitesearch=video.google.com (Research NDE)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I9-XxBAEsQ (BBC - The day I died)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6547221602055506348&q=mickey+robinson&total=57&start=0&num=50&so=0&type=search&plindex=1 ( mickey robinson — air crash to Christ)
Thanks for the links, but I do not put much trust in NDE testimonials because the NDE descriptions from other faiths testifying its own beliefs, are available, too. Same with the hymns and poetry.
Like I said earlier, seeking evidence is an indication of wavering faith.
“Tell a devout Christian that his wife is cheating on him or that frozen yogurt can make a man invisible, and he is likely to require as much evidence as anyone else, and to be persuaded only to the extent that you give it. Tell him that the book he keeps by his bed was written by an invisible deity who will punish him with fire for eternity if he fails to accept its every incredible claim about the universe, and he seems to require no evidence whatsoever.”
There is much truth to this statement. The thought of being tormented for eternity is a powerful motivator to blind obedience. In reasonable moments one thinks of hell sa remnant of tales told in ancient times by primitive people who feared everthing they did not understand. Oh yes! The boogey man “boogey man” will get you if you don’t say your prayers or do your chores. The idea of hell is at once preposterous, frightening and antithetic to justice tempered with merch.
But then the atheist idea of death being nothingness is very scary for some. But why? Actually you can’t experience “nothing” if you are not alive. Nothing = non-existence. Before you were conceived did you feel anything? Fear, joy, boredom? No there was no “you” to have feelings. You did not exist. You were oblivious. The atheists asserts that death is the same oblivion. Not so bad when you think about it.
Then there is heaven. Something to be really excited about. But I wonder if an ETERNITY of anything good or bad might be torture. I mean eternity is a long time, especially toward the end. An eternity of bliss and love, sorry it just does not do it for some people. I would rather have ups and downs and interesting things to do and not just sit around all day filled with love and joy. It sounds boring.
If there is nothing after this life, then why should one do what is not in one’s own best interest? There is no good or evil because those concepts are just inventions by men used to manipulate the people to act in a certain way.
The worst atheists, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, etc., really believed it and thus were not personally constrained by morals and ethics.
It is true that people from other faiths have NEDs, but that still testifies to the supernatural, and even witchcraft does that. Then they issue becomes which one is the right one. Moses 1st 3 miracles were duplicated by the devil (magicians), but he outdid them.
As for seeking evidence being an indication of wavering faith, that is true except sometimes when prayerfully seeking direction, but faith that has no evidence has no reality. The born again church did not grow to be what is (in the positive sense) because of good business strategy, or centralized CC, etc., or provides religious ritual, but most essentially because life giving truth and faith results in evidence.
I think the (sober) “Venture in faith” documentary (download) and many written testimonies are modern examples of what I am talking about, without asserting perfection. But every generation much have living Biblical faith, and share and maintain it.
And despite my faults and failures of faith, i can well testify that God keeps his promises as we trust and obey, and is also faithful to keep His promise to let you know when you are straying from that path.
He was born, he lived, he died, and now he’s compost.
Good luck with that. Atheists that think this life turns to nothingness must ask themselves why they believe in love, in right and wrong, in justice, in fairness, because if there’s no real meaning to life and we’re all a cosmic accident, none of that means anything because all of it just boils down to your opinion and everything is just relative and therefore meaningless in the end.
Most of us believe this life isn’t meaningless and that the things that count are not relative or subjective.
Forgot the hymns. While I do not know of any comparative research, I really think that the abundance of hymns by evangelicals, while being a minority, are unmatched in amount (per capita) and kind of content. Blind Fanny Crosby wrote 8,000, and others wrote thousands, testifying of what Christ did in their soul and the realities of the Christian faith.
You make an extremely astute statement: Eternity is forever. As mortals with a beginning and an end, we cannot comprehend that. So, once again, we turn to scripture for a better understanding.
But as it is written: "What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him,"
1 Corinthians 2:9
So, what do we know? We know from those who have had a near death experience that they did not want to come back.
There can be no moral absolutes for atheists, no absolute measure of or authority for “good” and “evil”. As you have pointed out morality and ethics are determined by consensus.
You said, “But then the atheist idea of death being nothingness is very scary for some. But why? Actually you can’t experience “nothing” if you are not alive. Nothing = non-existence. Before you were conceived did you feel anything? Fear, joy, boredom? No there was no “you” to have feelings. You did not exist. You were oblivious. The atheists asserts that death is the same oblivion. Not so bad when you think about it.”
The “peace” of nothingness. A billion years and a nanosecond, should feel the same, according to that.
Thanks!
Everything follows after that.
Not only. But despite the symphony of angry-at-God men like Dawkins, Harris and Hitches who espouse a superior basis for morality than those dangerous Christians who are may blow up the world, what assurance can relying on the “golden compass” of man provide when it so easily points south (or left)? That is the same moral reasoning the atheists as Mao and Pol Pot used in doing what seemed pragmatically reasonable to them, and the political religion the atheism fosters. Many atheists favor removing children from the homes of evangelicals, even likening them to drug users.
Meanwhile the atrocities (Inquisitions, etc.) they blame Christianity for were contrary to the Bible, and its influence has helped build strong societies, which they benefit from.
This is an ignorance comparison, and supposes that Christian faith rests on just words. It does rest on the Bible, but the reason the Bible became the Bible was ultimately believing its words and its gospel result in life. I was raised devoutly religious (RC) but had no interest in what the Bible said or meant until after i became born again, and then my hunger to know what it meant became nigh insatiable, and this was not because i was in some cult of strong church, much less in the “Bible belt”, but it was really the Lord and me - a truck driver with a radio tuned to the Christian station.
Read the Gospel story of Lazarus the beggar (LK 16,19-31) when Abraham addresses the rich man who is in torment, pleading to return to life to warn his family members about life after death. Abraham tells the rich man that even if his wish to return is granted, the living will not believe him. Maybe that is why nobody returns.
“What if WE are right?”
“If” connotes supposition or uncertain possibility. You have doubt.
“So, what do we know? We know from those who have had a near death experience that they did not want to come back. “
Yes interesting but how “near” was death? And are you sure no one wanted to come back? No one?
So you say the bible says heaven is just wonderful and we in our finite human capacity can’t begin to imagine it. But trust what the bible says of heaven is true. Sorry it just does not move me. If the bible says heaven is great, okay fine, but I am in no way in a hurry to get there and nothing said by the bible about heaven has ever changed that.
This is an ignorance comparison, and supposes that Christian faith rests on just words. It does rest on the Bible, but the reason the Bible became the Bible was ultimately believing its words and its gospel result in life. I was raised devoutly religious (RC) but had no interest in what the Bible said or meant until after i became born again, and then my hunger to know what it meant became nigh insatiable, and this was not because i was in some cult of strong church, much less in the “Bible belt”, but it was really the Lord and me - a truck driver with a radio tuned to the Christian station.”
Well I can tell you without hesitation that I am not ignorant of the bible. I was raised RC too and I learned plenty about the bible. Now this born again experience you are talking about I am somewhat skeptical of. Here’s why. It’s emotions. You feel all emotional inside and you answer the altar call. Or you feel repentance or whatever strong emotion with regard to Jesus.
I don’t trust emotions. They come and go and they are sometimes phony. So many people say, I was a Catholic but then I was born again and I “felt” such peace and now I have a personal relationship with Jesus. Let me say this there is nothing in the NT that says you have to “feel” certain emotions to become Christian. There is nothing that says you have to have a personal relationship with Jesus. This is not to say that Catholics are not emotional in the practice of their faith. Very many are. But you don’t have to be. A very dry faith is perfectly acceptable and sometimes it is even better because you are not needing emotional consolation all the time.
I don’t trust emotions. I trust logic and reason and what makes sense.
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