Replies

That’s a stretch!

You do realize Acts 15:8-9 is referring to this:

“42And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

44While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

“Everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name” - and the Holy Spirit was poured out, even on Gentiles, who received the Holy Spirit just like Peter did (who believed first, and then received).

Hardly evidence that we are born again by election, and then are given faith as the fruit of our salvation!

And Hebrews 11? YGBSM - if you’ll forgive an old Wild Weasel!

Hebrews 11:2 “For by it the people of old received their commendation.” We receive commendation for what we could not resist?!

Abraham is in that list, and what does scripture say of him? “6And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.”

And Moses? “24By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin.”

Moses CHOSE to be with the people of God, by faith. Faith was the cause, not the end result.

“30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.”

By faith they fell, not they fell and the people received faith.

And Dr E writes - although she knows it is not correct - “Hebrews 11 provides excellent Scripture supporting the fact that faith is a free gift of God’s grace (Eph. 2) and thus it is the evidence of our salvation by God.”

As another poster explained some time ago:

“The thing to note here is that the “that” that so many think refers to faith cannot because it is a neuter pronoun that refers back to the neuter noun “riches” and to that noun’s apposition “gift,” also singular neuter. It doesn’t refer to “faith” because, if it did, it would have been feminine in gender.

A better way of translating this passage would be simply to repeat the noun to which the pronoun refers and to make sure the parenthetical comments appear as such both times.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ (by grace you are saved) and has raised us up together and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus so that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding wealth of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus (for by grace are ye saved through faith). And that exceeding wealth, the gift of God, is not of yourselves. It is not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, in which God has before ordained that we should walk. “

As I’ve posted to Dr E many times, in the Greek, Ephesians 2 says salvation is God’s gift - NOT faith.

Guess I’m still waiting for scriptural evidence that faith is the result of salvation, rather than the means by which we are saved by God’s grace.