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To: xzins
And thus, Brother ShadowAce, you have both Free Will and Predestination. But, this is biblical: “those He foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son...”

This I agree with. I understand the the whole question is one of those mysteries we won't fully understand until we get there, but some positions on this are too outrageous.

I entered into these discussions years ago when a calvinist "mourned" that many of the aborted babies are going to hell without a chance to repent.

I took serious offense at that.

183 posted on 03/02/2010 11:14:17 AM PST by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: ShadowAce
I entered into these discussions years ago when a calvinist "mourned" that many of the aborted babies are going to hell without a chance to repent.

Unfortunately, that Calvinist didn't know the widely accepted Reformed argument on infants too well:

John Newton, the composer of Amazing Grace and later a great minister and author, wrote to a family grieving the loss of a child during birth,
I hope you are both well reconciled to the death of your child. I cannot be sorry for the death of infants. How many storms do they escape! Nor can I doubt, in my private judgment, that they are included in the election of grace.

The Canons of Dordt, The First Main Point of Doctrine
Article 17: The Salvation of the Infants of Believers Since we must make judgments about God's will from his Word, which testifies that the children of believers are holy, not by nature but by virtue of the gracious covenant in which they together with their parents are included, godly parents ought not to doubt the election and salvation of their children whom God calls out of this life in infancy.

Funny thing about that one is that it is in response to the Arminian argument... just sayin.

Dr. Al Mohler has an article HERE addressing the popular Calvinist view. From that Article:
On September 29, 1861, the great Baptist pastor, Charles Spurgeon, preached a message entitled “Infant Salvation.” In that message he chastened some critics who had “. . . wickedly, lyingly, and slanderously said of Calvinists that we believe that some little children perish.” Similar rumblings have been heard in some Baptist circles of late. Spurgeon affirmed that God saved little ones without limitation and without exception. He, then, as was his manner, turned to conclude the message with an evangelistic appeal to parents who might be lost. Listen to his plea:
Many of you are parents who have children in heaven. Is it not a desirable thing that you should go there too? And yet, have I not in these galleries and in this area some, perhaps many, who have no hope hereafter? . . . . Mother, unconverted mother, from the battlements of heaven your child beckons you to Paradise. Father, ungodly, impenitent father, the little eyes that once looked joyously on you, look down upon you now and the lips which had scarcely learned to call you “Father” ere they were sealed by the silence of death, may be heard as with a still, small voice, saying to you this morning, “Father, must we be forever divided by the great gulf which no man can pass?” If you wilt, think of these matters, perhaps the heart will begin to move, and the eyes may begin to flow and then may the Holy Spirit put before thine eyes the cross of the Savior . . . if thou wilt turn thine eye to Him, thou shalt live . . .
Westminster Confession of Faith, Ch. X, para 3:
Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who works when, and where, and how He pleases: so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word
London Baptist Confession, Ch. X, para 3:
Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. ( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )



I took serious offense at that.

Most Reformed believers would either take offense at, and/or correct, such error.
185 posted on 03/02/2010 1:04:17 PM PST by raynearhood ("As for you, when wide awake you are asleep, and asleep when you write"-Jerome (Against Vigilantius))
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To: P-Marlowe; ShadowAce; Dr. Eckleburg; xzins; blue-duncan
Let me add another thing. I know a lot of Reformed Christians. Seriously. A lot. I don't know a single one that would argue "that there would necessarily be infants who die who will be thrown into Hell for no other reason than that God chose to hate them." Not a single one. The harshest view I have ever heard from a Reformed believer is something along the lines of, "Scripture doesn't really address the issue of infant death and salvation plainly and clearly. There really is no way to know, or be sure of it one way or another. The best approach is to not dogmatize or systematize one position over another and trust that God has it sorted out according to his will. What will we question either way when we find out for sure?"
238 posted on 03/02/2010 10:40:32 PM PST by raynearhood ("As for you, when wide awake you are asleep, and asleep when you write"-Jerome (Against Vigilantius))
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