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To: rwfromkansas; Nevadan; Luke21

“My wife, who used to be a hard-core Baptist Arminian, has now “converted” to Calvinism so to speak solely based upon Jesus’ prayer at the Garden. He prays for the elect, not the entire world.”

Illogical. Jesus also prays at one point for just Peter - does that mean only Peter is loved and saved?

Of COURSE Jesus spent time praying specifically for his followers, current and future. That has NOTHING to do with a list of names, with the ‘Happy List’ of names he loves and will save irresistibly, and the ‘Unhappy List’ of names he has chosen to damn for his pleasure.

“Yes, God may have tugged at our heart via the Holy Spirit to come to him, but we weren’t dragged against our will...”

Scripture says God desires for ALL to repent, and that he commands “all men everywhere” to do so. That some - the large majority - reject him is without doubt, but it is also without doubt that he commands us to repent and believe.

To command someone to do what you know is impossible for them is both stupid and malicious...speaking as a former military officer. And while some military officers are both, God is neither!

Why is it so hard for Calvinists to believe that God is sincere? That when he says he loves the world so much that he gave his only begotten son, that anyone who believes shall not perish - that God MEANS it?! What perversion turns the hundreds of statements about our being required to believe into mocking of our inability? If God saves people based on names on a list, why doesn’t it say so in scripture - just once? Explicitly, as in “For you are saved by grace thru election...”!


123 posted on 03/01/2010 8:06:34 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers
That has NOTHING to do with a list of names, with the ‘Happy List’ of names he loves and will save irresistibly, and the ‘Unhappy List’ of names he has chosen to damn for his pleasure.

God DOES already know who will be saved and who will be damned. He's known it from before the foundation of the world. Otherwise, He would not have had to provide a "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

125 posted on 03/01/2010 8:11:40 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: Mr Rogers
Scripture says God desires for ALL to repent, and that he commands “all men everywhere” to do so. That some - the large majority - reject him is without doubt, but it is also without doubt that he commands us to repent and believe. To command someone to do what you know is impossible for them is both stupid and malicious...speaking as a former military officer. And while some military officers are both, God is neither!

It would also be stupid not to explain to criminals what is the right way. They could always then say, "You never complained before; why now?"

And you know as a military officer that commanded people not to drink and drive that some doofus is going to go out that night, screw up, and you'd have a DUI on your desk to deal with on Monday morning.

126 posted on 03/01/2010 8:18:43 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: Mr Rogers

“All” refers to all types of men if you look at the context.

There is such a thing as the general call of the gospel. The Bible doesn’t say “come to me if you are elect.” It says come to me and be saved. It’s technically correct that only the elect will come, but that isn’t the point of those calls. It’s a call to come and be saved. That doesn’t mean God has determined that all will be saved, for if you look at Scripture, you see numerous times that God’s will is perfect and will occur. God isn’t a failure. Thus, if God wanted all saved....it would happen.

As for the prayer, Jesus explicitly says he only prays for those the Father gave him. If you look at the rest of John, the giving language is very present and even includes statements like we can only come to Jesus if the father draws us etc.

It is only logical to conclude when faced with this mountain of evidence that election is in fact true. For, if there is a group of people the Father gives to Christ....it must go beyond just his immediate disciples and also include all believers if we see numerous other times that the only way we can come is if the Father gives us to Christ.

That’s the only way because we are dead in sins. It is only those who do not truly understand the Fall who think somehow we can “choose” to be saved. The fall wasn’t a small issue. We are dead, and the dead can’t make themselves alive. We need Christ for that, for Christ to pull us out of the tomb like Lazarus.

Scripture also says our names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, so yes, there is that book with our names in it as Christians. And just like Scripture says Christ was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, there is a clear providential meaning behind this statement. The names aren’t in there “because God knew we would choose” as I assume you might say.

Just a little quibble by the way....God didn’t damn anyone. They do it themselves by their rebellion. He only chooses to save an innumerable number of humanity, passing over others.


127 posted on 03/01/2010 8:24:13 AM PST by rwfromkansas ("Carve your name on hearts, not marble." - C.H. Spurgeon)
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