And I went and spoiled it for you. Mea culpa.
Posted on 02/28/2010 8:30:39 AM PST by CondoleezzaProtege
John Calvin's 16th century reply to medieval Catholicism's buy-your-way-out-of-purgatory excesses is Evangelicalism's latest success story, complete with an utterly sovereign and micromanaging deity, sinful and puny humanity, and the combination's logical consequence, predestination: the belief that before time's dawn, God decided whom he would save (or not), unaffected by any subsequent human action or decision.
Calvinism, cousin to the Reformation's other pillar, Lutheranism, is a bit less dour than its critics claim: it offers a rock-steady deity who orchestrates absolutely everything, including illness (or home foreclosure!), by a logic we may not understand but don't have to second-guess. Our satisfaction — and our purpose — is fulfilled simply by "glorifying" him. In the 1700s, Puritan preacher Jonathan Edwards invested Calvinism with a rapturous near mysticism. Yet it was soon overtaken in the U.S. by movements like Methodism that were more impressed with human will. Calvinist-descended liberal bodies like the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) discovered other emphases, while Evangelicalism's loss of appetite for rigid doctrine — and the triumph of that friendly, fuzzy Jesus — seemed to relegate hard-core Reformed preaching (Reformed operates as a loose synonym for Calvinist) to a few crotchety Southern churches.
No more. Neo-Calvinist ministers and authors don't operate quite on a Rick Warren scale. But, notes Ted Olsen, a managing editor at Christianity Today, "everyone knows where the energy and the passion are in the Evangelical world" — with the pioneering new-Calvinist John Piper of Minneapolis, Seattle's pugnacious Mark Driscoll and Albert Mohler, head of the Southern Seminary of the huge Southern Baptist Convention. The Calvinist-flavored ESV Study Bible sold out its first printing, and Reformed blogs like Between Two Worlds are among cyber-Christendom's hottest links.
(Excerpt) Read more at time.com ...
God is wholly responsible for those he saves. "You did not choose me but I chose you." God is responsible for our wisdom of Him, our repentance, our faith, our sanctification, and putting the Holy Spirit within us to cause us to walk in His ways. I don't think it can be plainer than that.
What do you have that has not been given to you?
Doubt.
Okay, what was God doing outside of time when he was not creating the world. And while you are at it, what does God besides concern himself with his creation?
The story of Job takes place after Adam. The story of Job does not describe Satan as a cursed cunning animal of the Garden, but as one of God's angels, one the "sons of God" whom God summons and converses, even consults. What transpired between the curse in the Garden and the time of Job? And since when are corporeal animals also considered incorporeal angels?
The ancient Jews taught that it was wrong to even write the name of God. Since Christians took it upon themselves to write the name of God, what is the difference between writing an icon for the 99% of the population that was illiterate, and writing the name of God for the 1% of the population that could read? Besides, if we go back early enough, the Church taught subordinationalism and no defined Trinity; therefore these icons would have been considered orthodox at one time.
Stamp collecting? Model airplanes? Does this question conceivably even have an answer?
The icon was made in 500 AD or so then the icon would not have been orthodox. By that time the Church already held at least five out of seven Ecumenical Councils and the issue of Christology has long been settled.
Of course not. I just wanted to see what some people come up with! :)
I said that I think it was: the history was a little vague. Perhaps I should send it to Kolo for his take on it. Suppose it goes back to the 300s. Does that make it correct, and we simply note it as a past step?
And I went and spoiled it for you. Mea culpa.
So far so good.
If Calvinism's soteriological construct is true, then doctrine is superfluous, the bible is superfluous, Faith is superfluous and effectively everything is meaningless except God's decision to elect you to salvation or to let you ignorantly or otherwise die in your sins.
No, none of those things is superfluous because God uses them all in the salvation and sanctification of His elect. All of these things concern the implementation of God's decision to elect. In essence, when God decided to elect the deal was as good as done, but it still must be done within time. For comparison, you know that it was decided that Jesus would die on the cross long before it happened, nevertheless, it still HAD to happen, i.e. when He actually did it, it was not superfluous.
If Calvinism is correct in what it claims, then there is no such thing as Dangerous Doctrine. It is irrelevant. What do you care if people who are going to hell anyway are being taught doctrines that are true or doctrines that are false? If they hold to incorrect doctrines it is because God intended them to hold to those doctrines and you are kicking against the pricks by trying to correct their misconceptions.
From God's POV this is all correct, but since we are not given a list of the names of the elect, our POV is necessarily different. We are commanded to treat all men as if they were elect and witness to them. So, we do. Working on a "hopeless cause" because he is reprobate is never a waste because it is in obedience to God, and there is always a benefit to us, the believer. Regardless of the outcome, every single time we witness we get better at it, we become more fit to give a reason for the hope we have. That can never be a waste.
Plus, it makes no difference anyway (witnessing to an elect or reprobate) since when we do happen to witness to someone who happens to be elect we don't do any of the saving. Only God does. I take no credit or blame for the "results" of my witnessing. I take my satisfaction in obeying Him and leave everything else to Him. I am perfectly comfortable with God wanting me to witness to the elect and reprobate alike.
These same principles apply to the sanctification of other Christians. There are certain points of theology we are ordained to eventually "get", and others we will never understand. So, no amount of arguing is going to change anything THAT WAS ORDAINED. It might, though, help to grow another Christian in accordance with what WAS ordained. For example, it was not ordained that I came to faith as a Calvinist. However, it was ordained that at some later time I would become aware of Calvinism, here on FR, and that I would accept it. So it was definitely worthwhile to me that others were already debating these points on FR before I came along.
You honestly believe (as I do) that there are "dangerous doctrines". But in your construct how can they be "dangerous"? Who can possibly be harmed by them? You? Me?
Yes, with the limited information we have, we perceive dangerous doctrines. So, we argue against them in obedience to God. That's our job, and it is enough. God will use us in part to cause to happen what He has ordained to happen. Certain doctrines can be harmful either temporarily or permanently so in obedience to God we try to steer people away from them.
Maybe deep down you believe it, but in your Calvinistic construct, you don't. You can't. The elect are the elect and their salvation is not contingent upon them receiving correct teaching and the lost are lost no matter how much good doctrine they receive or how much good doctrine is taught to them or how many bible verses they've memorized or how much money they have given to the poor. They are lost so they are lost. Period. No hope. Hope is a mere illusion to both the elect and the lost. Sorry but my mind cannot wrap itself around those ideas. That is why I don't think I will ever be a Calvinist.
In the normal course being elected will necessarily entail that many things happen during the person's lifetime, including following correct doctrine. God is in control of all of it, and that gives me peace. You are right that Calvinists believe we cannot change anything with regard to God's will, but why is that such a bad thing?
I sense that you are bothered by the idea that there is no hope because things cannot be changed. But it should not bother you because that is not Calvinism and for these purposes there is ZERO difference between Calvinistic Divine Ordination and Arminian Divine Foreknowledge. That is to say, you agree that God is omniscient and already knows everyone who will come to Him and be in Heaven. In essence it's already done, and nothing can change what God already knows, right? So, your same concern would have to apply from that perspective. I don't see any difference.
However, this does not in any way mean hope is an illusion. Hope is real for us because we have limited information. Our entire human experience is real for us for the same reason. I'm sure most of us have asked why God bothers to get out of bed in the morning if He already knows what's going to happen that day. His reality is different from ours. In ours there is limited knowledge and so things like hope and faith and trust are possible and real. This is true in Calvinism and Arminianism.
On the one hand you cry that salvation is entirely monergistic and then in the next breath you speak of such contradictory nonsense as "dangerous doctrines" and the "necessity of saving faith".
These are not contradictory. Salvation is entirely monergistic. In the normal course, all of those who are "monergistically saved" will be given saving grace. During the sanctifications of those so saved, dangerous doctrines will come and go and in obedience we argue against them. We take rest in knowing that no matter how good or bad a debater we are, God is in full control of every outcome. Where is there contradiction?
FK: I became a Calvinist by coming to FR and reading the exact same arguments I am making now, so I sure do think it is worthwhile. :)
Then convince me. Oh wait, you can't, can you?
LOL! That's right, I can't. All I can do, in obedience to God, is to present the best case I can and God will do what He will, now or later. I can be patient. :)
Congratulations! If you were not dead in trespasses and sins, in other words, it is just a useless metaphor, and you are able on your own to meet the conditions of believing, then you have saved yourself. All God did was provide the opportunity of salvation, the atonement, but it is useless unless you agree to accept it and God is helpless to assist you, otherwise it would be God who coerced you into something on further reflection, you may not have wanted to do.
All protestations that the faith exercised is not works are but feeble attempts to rescue the sovereignty of God from the Invictus syndrome, “I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul....”.
“Congratulations! If you were not dead in trespasses and sins, in other words, it is just a useless metaphor, and you are able on your own to meet the conditions of believing, then you have saved yourself.”
That is a stupid statement.
Metaphors ARE useful, provided they are understood for what they are, and not taken as the literal end-all. Are we dead in our sins? YES! Was the Prodigal Son dead to his father? Yes! Are we alienated from God, with no communion with him? Yes. Are we helpless to save ourselves? Yes!
But scripture uses a number of other metaphors, and to refuse to read them, acknowledge them or incorporate them is to deceive ourselves and others.
When Jesus calls us sick, who are you to deny his words? When Jesus calls us lost, who are you to deny his words? Who are you to reject what God says about and to Cornelius? Who are you to reject what Jesus says when he commands repentance, and belief?
Who are you to defy the Word of God?
You have yet to offer a single passage that shows faith is something God gives as a gift to man after regeneration by election.
NOT ONE!
If that is the plan of salvation since before creation, don’t you think God’s word would mention it? Somewhere? Sometime?
In an earlier post, Dr E admits she can’t recall ever meeting anyone who was a Calvinist at conversion...that every Calvinist she has met ‘grew’ into that understanding. Isn’t it just a bit odd that no one gets saved as a Calvinist? And how are we saved, if none of us believe the REAL gospel when we are saved?
Here is what you cannot get around by scripture:
1 - For God so loved the world...
Not the elect. Not his ‘chosen’ people. God so loved the world!
2 - that whoever believes in him
Not, whoever I regenerate and give belief to, not whoever I’ve chosen to make believe, but “that whoever believes in him”. That is a condition, AND God’s choice for salvation.
3 - That God’s offer is often rejected. “...his own people did not receive him”. That is a choice of individuals: “you refuse to come to me that you may have life”!
4 - “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God...” Receiving him - which is equated to believing in him - comes BEFORE regeneration as children of God, not after.
At some point, Calvinists need to take scripture seriously. God said what he meant, and meant what he said, and it takes a powerful act of the will to replace it with Calvinism!
“What do you have that has not been given to you?”
According to scripture, faith. For while we cannot come to it on our own - faith, by definition, takes two - we are responsible for believing, or not.
Mat 21:32 “For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.
Here Jesus holds them accountable for not believing, since even the prostitutes have - but they STILL won’t change their minds and believe!
Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.
Why would he rebuke them for having too little of what he gave them - and apparently gave them insufficiently?
Jhn 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Jhn 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Notice - we are given reasons to believe. If belief is a gift, irresistibly given by God, there needs be no reason, for we will be unable to do anything other than believe!
And it is “by believing” that we may have life. Not, so that you might have life and believe!
2Ti 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
What? Scripture can make us wise for salvation?
Jhn 6:40 “For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Everyone who looks. Not all I have chosen by name from before the world began, but “EVERYONE WHO LOOKS”. That is a condition.
Jhn 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
Belief is the condition.
Act 16:31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
What must I do to be saved? “BELIEVE”.
What arrogance replaces the word of God with the words of Calvin!
“Are we helpless to save ourselves? Yes!”
How are you helpless to save yourself when the power to either accept or reject salvation is up to you?
Helpless means you can’t do it on your own, yet you say you can. You say in order to be saved you alone have to exercise your free will and your faith. God offers salvation but you have the power to either accept or reject it. That is saving yourself. That is saying: “God helps those who help themselves”; “I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul”.
“You have yet to offer a single passage that shows faith is something God gives as a gift to man after regeneration by election.”
We have given you the verses but you insist on saving yourself; again I say congratulations.
LOLOL!
The words of God are spirit and life. The words of men are neither spirit nor life.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Corinthians 2:14
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. - I John 2:29
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. - John 15:4
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