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To: Jvette

Jvette said:
“Through her came salvation. Through her came redemption. Through her came LOVE. Through her came grace. Through her came Jesus and through Him all are drawn to God and are sons and daughters of Him.”

The same could be said of every single one of the progenitors of Jesus, all the way back to Eve.

Where is the command of God to venerate Mary? Where is there any indication from God that we should do so? There is none. Thus all who do so stand on very uncertain ground.

Where is the command of God to consider and use Mary as mediator? Where is there any indication from God that we should do so?

You want the world to do as you do, think as you think, and believe as you believe regarding Mary. But were is the clear and unambiguous indication from God that we should do so?

Israel repeatedly incurred God’s wrath because they did what said not to do, failed to do what He told them to do, and operated continually on the basis of their own judgment about what would or would not be good and helpful. Why should anyone believe what you say regarding Mary when you operate similarly? Where is the command? Where is the clear indication that we should do as you want and yourself do?

And you wonder why you fail to convince?

If God says it, it is so. Plain and simple. Where does God say, “Venerate Mary”? Where does God say, “Call upon Mary as mediator”? Where does God even faintly indicate such to me, to the church at large?

Finally, when Jesus teaches us plainly on the very night He was betrayed that we can and should call upon the Father directly, and that we will be heard for His sake and in His name, (John 16:23-30), why do you tell us to do differently? Answer this simple question.


232 posted on 05/14/2010 8:14:02 PM PDT by Belteshazzar
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To: Belteshazzar; Jvette
we can and should call upon the Father directly

That "we" is most often me and the Blessed Virgin Mary. If you keep a different company, it is your loss.

234 posted on 05/15/2010 9:04:37 AM PDT by annalex
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To: Belteshazzar

I do not try to convince, I seek to explain, it is the work of the Holy Spirit to move the heart and mind of the believer and non believer.

God has used many messengers and mediators in His interactions with His children. Jesus is THE mediator for the remission of sins, THE vehicle of grace and THE door to salvation and eternal life.

Jesus’ work was not complete when He ascended into heaven. His mission yes, the work, no. His disciples were to be His emissaries and to them He gave a commission. Mary was the first of His disciples.

Catholics believe that God has used her throughout the history of Christianity. From the very beginning and even now. It is up to one to believe or not believe.

Mary is a stumbling block for many protestants returning home to the Church. She is often the last roadblock to full entrance to Catholicism. Yet, when that hurdle is overcome, those who enter into full communion find peace and joy.

It is rare than one who comes to the Church late in life or after having been a part of a protestant denomination, then leave again. Most who leave are cradle Catholics of little faith or easily doubtful when faced with such vehement opposition such as is found on many of the threads here.

Jesus said many things plainly that were misunderstood by His disciples even unto this day. Did not Jesus also say that He had many other things to tell His apostles but that there was no time? Did He not promise that the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete would remind them and lead them to all truth?
Does not Scripture ensure us that there is much more to God and Jesus that is not written about in Scripture?

The Church has the assurance it needs. These are not arbitrary and flippant doctrines regarding Mary. They are a direct result of attacks on Jesus, His divinity, His humanity and His mission. Each and every teaching on Mary supports and defends the teachings on Jesus.

She is not God, it has never been declared that she is divine. It has never been said that she is anything but what Jesus made her by choosing her as His mother.

Catholics do not limit God to the written word. Scripture is there for our benefit, everything in it inspired and sufficient for our belief that Jesus is Lord.


238 posted on 05/15/2010 10:26:44 AM PDT by Jvette
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To: Belteshazzar

Jvette said:
“Through her came salvation. Through her came redemption. Through her came LOVE. Through her came grace. Through her came Jesus and through Him all are drawn to God and are sons and daughters of Him.”

The same could be said of every single one of the progenitors of Jesus, all the way back to Eve.

Where is the command of God to venerate Mary? Where is there any indication from God that we should do so? There is none. Thus all who do so stand on very uncertain ground.

Where is the command of God to consider and use Mary as mediator? Where is there any indication from God that we should do so?

You want the world to do as you do, think as you think, and believe as you believe regarding Mary. But were is the clear and unambiguous indication from God that we should do so?

Israel repeatedly incurred God’s wrath because they did what said not to do, failed to do what He told them to do, and operated continually on the basis of their own judgment about what would or would not be good and helpful. Why should anyone believe what you say regarding Mary when you operate similarly? Where is the command? Where is the clear indication that we should do as you want and yourself do?

And you wonder why you fail to convince?

If God says it, it is so. Plain and simple. Where does God say, “Venerate Mary”? Where does God say, “Call upon Mary as mediator”? Where does God even faintly indicate such to me, to the church at large?

Finally, when Jesus teaches us plainly on the very night He was betrayed that we can and should call upon the Father directly, and that we will be heard for His sake and in His name, (John 16:23-30), why do you tell us to do differently? Answer this simple question.

= = =

EXCELLENT.
ACCURATE.
BIBLICAL.
NO RUBBER ‘LOGIC.’
TRUE.
SKILLFULLY PUT.

THANKS BIG.


242 posted on 05/15/2010 12:25:10 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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