Posted on 02/24/2010 11:17:16 AM PST by Pyro7480
III. Mary is our Mother and Queen of the New Davidic Kingdom
John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying "behold your mother." Jesus did not say "John, behold your mother" because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.
Rev. 12:17 - this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The "woman's" (Mary's) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God's covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.
John 2:3 - this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary's intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus' ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one famiy through the marriage of divinity and humanity.
John 2:7 - Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother's request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.
Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God's kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.
1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.
1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King's followers. She is the Queen Mother (or "Gebirah"). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.
1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.
1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel's royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.
2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.
Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.
The sacrifice took place 2000 years ago.
I think you're looking at superficialities, then.
We offer sacrifice to Trinity.
We offer praise to Mary, which is sometimes pretty ordinary and Biblical (the Hail Mary) and sometimes a bit more sappy and fulsome (the Salve Regina).
Compare the Te Deum sometime with the Marian prayer of your choice.
Yes, it did. That you (I assume) wrongly believe it ended 2000 years ago is irrelevant to the argument at hand though, because we don't believe that.
Therefore, according to our system of belief, we worship God by offering sacrifice. We honor Mary, but we do not offer sacrifices to her.
Yep ... and that one Sacrifice for all times and places is made present (praise God) at every Mass/Liturgy, every day, all over the world.
When you leave confession and the priest tells you that to atone for your sins you have to say 500 Hail Mary's, what is that, if it is not a sacrifice to Mary?
Again, then the issue is not "why ask Mary to pray for you, why not ask God directly," is it? You have no problem asking "Frank" to pray for you, you only have a problem with the way Catholics ask Mary to pray for them.
(This is, BTW, a big improvement over the usual argument that is made, which is that Mary is "dead" and Frank isn't, as though saints in heaven were somehow less able to pray for us than Christian believers on earth!)
If they are my friends, they are my friends, not my superiors, they are sinners like myself saved by the grace of God and the glory for any work they do on my behalf belongs to God
But, if your prayer request were answered, there wouldn't be anything wrong with thanking Frank as well, would there? (And you should of course thank God first, as in anything else.)
If they are my friends, they are my friends, not my superiors
I think this is really the nub of the issue, though it's often hard to get Protestants to admit it. See, we absolutely do see the saints in heaven as our superiors. They aren't superior by nature (as God is); they are superior by achievement and history.
That is to say, God is superior to us -- first of all -- because he is God.
The saints in heaven are superior to us because they have run the race and won the prize, to use Pauline terminology. (Of course they are still infinitely inferior to God by nature, though they partake of his nature and have a share in his glory.)
The (good) angels are superior to us (arguably by nature), but inferior to God (by nature, certainly), and inferior to the saints in heaven (we know this through revelation: we will judge the angels).
We here on earth, are "for a little while lower than the angels". So, yes, we do see a hierarchy, and I think the Bible establishes that pretty clearly.
If quoting Scripture and asking a Christian to pray for me is "offering sacrifice" to someone other than God, we're all in a heap of trouble.
I am not asking you what you think about the Mass. I am asking you to correct the demonstrably wrong statement that there is no difference between the Catholic worship of God, which is the Holy Mass, and Catholic veneration of Mary, which is not.
Tell me, the widow who gave her mite... Do you pray to her?
What about the countless believers who have gone through life unnoticed for the work that God did, do you pray to them, or is your list limited to those that some Magisterium has declared are worthy of your prayers? Are those people accounted for on your rosary? Do you have beads to represent them?
Would you please tell us, in your own words, what you think praying the Rosary entails?
unless his sibling were not yet believers.....plus - I don't find it "unconcionable" - and I imaginge that there is presedence - AND Jesus did many things that were even more "unconscionable" ..... that is why so many of the Jewish leaders wanted to KILL him
If you claim to know and understand the Catholic dogma you should have no problem pointing out in the Catechism of the Catholic Church where it Mary worship and idolatry is endorsed. I can hardly wait for your answer because in 50 years of reading it I have been unable to find it.
It is reciting Scripture:
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.
Luke 1:28 "And coming to her, he said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you." Blessed art thou among women
Luke 1:41-42a "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women..."
Luke 1:48 "For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed."
Blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus
Luke 1:42b "and blessed is the fruit of your womb."
Holy Mary, Mother of God
Luke 1:43 "And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Luke 2:35 "...and you yourself a sword will pierce so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed." John 2:5 "His mother said to the servers, "Do whatever he tells you."
http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/glories.htm
While the RCC might CLAIM it is not “worship”, that is irrelevant. When you bow down to statues, pray to them (or the being they represent), bring offernings (such as flowers) to them and adore them, you are worshipping them.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....
Why don't you recite Leviticus?
Frankly if you need to atone for sins by making some sacrifice in reading scripture, I would think that having to recite a few chapters of Leviticus would go a long way further towards making a person think twice about repeating a sin than having to recite a few hundred Hail Marys.
Tell me, as a penance after confession, have you ever been asked to recite a chapter or two from Leviticus?
If so, have you ever repeated THAT sin?
Did you come on to this thread to learn or clarify what you already believe to be true about Catholicism or are you just here to spout falsehoods and display your ignorance? If you have never read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, never read any of the Encyclicals, or actually consulted with Catholic Clergy on issues of dogma then you have no legitimate basis for comment or opinion other than to say "it appears as though". To state anything definitively from a position of shear ignorance based upon voyeur like observations is ludicrous.
We study and incorporate the lessons of Levciticus into our worship, but the Old Testament only a prepratory test for the coming of Jesus and was fulfilled by His death and resurrection.
Catholic worship and prayer is concentrated on a new 10 commandments as enumerated by Christ Himself. These are the two greatest commandments He gave us and the eight Beatitudes.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.
Jesus added a second command, that we must love our neighbor as ourself.
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God.
Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
Are you just avoiding answering the question or are you content to just change the subject?
I answered your question, you are avoiding the answer.
The question had to do with penance.
Why are you told by the priest to say Hail Mary's (which you claim are just rote recitation of scriptural phrases) as a penance rather than reciting obscure passages of scripture? What sort of magic does a Hail Mary do that a "And of it he shall offer one out of the whole oblation for an heave offering unto the LORD, and it shall be the priest's that sprinkleth the blood of the peace offerings" will not likewise do?
If the Hail Mary is not some kind of adoration or worship or veneration of Mary and is just scripture recitation (like you implied), then why as a penance are not other, more obscure and more difficult passages ordered recited for penance?
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