Posted on 02/23/2010 10:14:39 PM PST by restornu
Mormon ExpressionAudio
An ongoing dialogue of all things Mormon
Noted Mormon internet apologist Jeff Lindsay talks with the panel.
CTR
Say, this makes sense:
Cutting a Little Slack for Ex-Mormons
In spite of having long spoken in defense of the Church against the criticisms of the “antis,” including some outspoken former members, I’d like to confess that there is room for increased respect and tolerance among LDS ranks for those who have left us and even rail against us. And I personally wish to improve and be less hasty in judging intents and criticizing positions of those who have left.
Remember the story in the Book of Mormon about the Nephite group who leaves Zarahemla to go back and live in the original land of Nephi? They spied on a Lamanite group living in the area, and the Nephite leaders prepared to attack. But some of the Nephites saw that those Lamanites were decent people and argued that it was wrong to launch an offensive war against them. Bloodshed erupted among the Nephite group and a handful of survivors returned to Zarahemla, their expedition having been a tragic failure.
I offer a weak parallel to this story in pointing out that many ex-Mormons, even some who show a lot of bitterness toward the Church, may be much more honorable people that we have realized, and may have entirely logical reasons from their perspective for leaving. In fact, it is not hard to find reasons to reject Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or any past or modern prophet, or to find doctrines and practices that one can strongly object to.
Many who leave do not do so because the moral standards were too high or because someone snubbed them at Church or because tithing was too painful or they just got sick of home teaching or were victims of gossip or had a serious moral sin that they wouldn’t quit. It is understandable, in fact, that people would get upset over polygamy or several other things in LDS history or even in the Bible that would lead them to reject the Church or organized religion in general. There are certainly powerful arguments to be made and often no simple answers.
I am sad that they left. I think there are rich spiritual dimensions to the LDS experience that they will miss, or perhaps were already missing during their time of membership in the Church. I had one person tell me, after twenty years of membership in the Church, that he had never experienced a real answer to prayer. That pains me. I wish their experience could have been more like mine. No, I can’t explain polygamy, either in Joseph’s day or Old Testament times. It makes no sense to me and aspects of it offend me, even if some of the marriages were “dynastic” marriages that did not involve living together as man and wife. All sorts of things offend me, from the Old Testament right up to 2006. But I cannot deny what I have experienced, and indeed, what I know. There is a power and a reality to core parts of the Gospel. The Atonement of Jesus Christ is real. The Book of Mormon is real and divine. The Temple is divine. Prayer “works.” The gift of the Holy Ghost is real. The blessings and miracles associated with Church service are real.
Something is going on here that cannot be explained by any hypothesis that begins with Joseph as a charlatan who fabricated the Book of Mormon. That doesn’t mean we have to agree with everything the Church has done, but there is at least something going on that needs to be considered.
But there are other ways of looking at the external evidences, and plenty of ways to miss the evidences of the divine. Those who leave because of their interpretation of history or evaluation of the evidence may be entirely sincere and rational. In fact, that may apply to the vast majority.
Those who choose to leave may still be our friends and neighbors. They may still be reasonable, kind, loving people with differences that we can accept. I hope we can have some degree of mutual respect and less nastiness.
Given the fallibility of man, it is almost certain that some things that any person accepts as truth will be wrong. In the end, the most important thing has got to be the gift that is the greatest of all, charity. May we have it in abundance, even toward our enemies, even toward those who choose to revile us and accuse us of all manner of stupidity. I need it more, and apologize when I have been too rash or harsh or quick to judge those who have offered criticisms here.
May we feel charity even for those who shout at us and wave garments in our face. But may we also see past our religious differences and realize that some of those who leave our Church do not stand shoulder to shoulder with those who taunt and defame us. Some feel we have been duped and defrauded, but mean us no harm and respect the good that they can see in us. We need not assume the worst in them, and instead should see the best that we can.
When I was a teenager, a friend of mine converted to the Church, and I was very happy for him. Then he ran into anti-Mormon literature and was swayed and began to speak against the Church and had his name removed. Understandably, my bishop encouraged several of us to be careful and to avoid religious discussion with him. I was uncomfortable with him and we grew apart. But now, many years later, we’ve teamed up again, though we are states apart. He’s an amazing person, vastly interesting, and though we differ in many topics, I am pleased to count him as a friend. He is no longer an “anti” but quietly tolerates my religious beliefs (with a few good-natured jokes, of course), though he thinks it’s all a lie and believes there is no God. I realize that he is every bit as important to God as I or any member of the Church, and perhaps more so, given what he has endured and overcome.
In appreciating him and his friendship, it is so clear that there is much more to life than simply whether one is or is not a member of any particular religion. Yes, the Church of Jesus Christ is divine and is a marvelous tool meant to bless the children of this planet, but there is much outside our tiny Church that we have yet to appreciate. This life is a journey, and there are treasures to be uncovered for all and in all who seek the Good, even when they - or we - have gotten some things wrong along the way.
May we be civil one to another, even as we debate our religious views and contend for the cause of truth as we see it.
Thank you Saundra and resty.
I DO see reasons for leaving the LDS Church, and I am here on FreeRepublic to discuss them on the religion forum where issues like those I found are to be discussed.
The level of uncharitable discourse has increased to the point that we often are screaming past one another.
Hopefully we can have more rational, and more caring discussions in the future. I truly love you guys - you were my “sisters” in the Mormon Church once upon a time.
My prayers are always with you.
To CC it seems we all go through various forms of trial and tribulations.
Humbly I don't why I received my conversion before I even read the Book of Mormon let alone knew anything else about the Church.
As I have stated before I was going to toss the book out until but I felt a prompt to read the passages marked in..
Moroni 10
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
I believe now when I prayed if the Book of Mormon was true as I stood over the wastepaper basket being sincere and trusting the Lord would answer is why I receive that witness of Joy which I could not deny and needed to know more about that Church.
Hebrew 11
1 NOW faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
It was an adventure which unfold each day as I continue the investigation I was good a spiritual student I wanted to know what I was experiencing and I tested everything it was something especially when I ran into feeling of foreboding
After reading Walter Martins stuff and a few others it was scary butterflies in my stomach and no one but the Lord to rely on. This is when I discovered how to discern what is of the Lord when confronted by the opposition.
From that time when I was confronted with new accusations I welcome it because I knew I was going to learn more about the ways of the Lord that I never knew or understood.
That is why it was an adventure as I got closer to understanding the feeling of forbidden would dissipate and I would receive the comfort of the Holy Ghost.
John 14:
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
I learn these tools before I ever read the Book of Mormon or the Doctrine and Covenant could you imagine when I did come across certain passages in those books even the POGP the Joy I felt to know when the Holy Spirit witness to me.
D&C 8
7 Behold, there is no other power, save the power of God, that can cause this gift of Aaron to be with you.
8 Therefore, doubt not, for it is the gift of God; and you shall hold it in your hands, and do marvelous works; and no power shall be able to take it away out of your hands, for it is the work of God.
9 And, therefore, whatsoever you shall ask me to tell you by that means, that will I grant unto you, and you shall have knowledge concerning it.
10 Remember that without faith you can do nothing; therefore ask in faith. Trifle not with these things; do not ask for that which you ought not.
11 Ask that you may know the mysteries of God, and that you may translate and receive knowledge from all those ancient records which have been hid up, that are sacred; and according to your faith shall it be done unto you.
12 Behold, it is I that have spoken it; and I am the same that spake unto you from the beginning. Amen. D&C 9
6 Do not murmur, my son, for it is wisdom in me that I have dealt with you after this manner.
7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.
Those things were taught to me by the Power of the Holy Ghost before I ever read about it.
I knew the Book of Mormon was true because as I read the passages in the Bible and then again the Book of Mormon it was tears of Joy or vice versa today I still am over whelm when I receive another insight.
We receive counsel for our personal life from the Lord in our prayers and also counsel from the Church leaders that the Lord wants His Children to know collectively but the witness of that counsel comes from the Holy Ghost!
In Luke 24
24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
This happen to me my eyes of understanding were open
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
I testify of these things in Jesus Christ name amen
Mormon Scholars Testify
http://mormonscholarstestify.org/640/jeff-lindsay
Facing Contrary Views
My faith is not blind or immune from logic. I have considered what others have said and have tried to understand and find answers.
Indeed, my faith for a period was greatly shaken by some anti-Mormon writings on the Book of Abraham. But as I grappled with that issue, I found that what some might consider to be the “weak underbelly of Mormonism” is actually a source of great strength for the Church.
There are delightful “bull’s eyes” in that book that are hard to account for as lucky guesses—and must be accounted for if we are to consider the big picture.
Since recognizing some of the deceptive tactics used in the “slam dunk” arguments against the Book of Abraham and the impressive evidence hinting that at least something beyond Joseph Smith’s abilities is going on in that text, I have come to learn that there are numerous ancient documents not available to Joseph Smith that support many elements in the text itself. (See the impressive volume of scholarship by John A. Tvedtnes, Brian M. Hauglid, and John Gee, eds., Traditions About the Early Life of Abraham, Studies in the Book of Abraham, No. 1 [Provo: FARMS, 2001].)
For those looking for understanding, there is great richness in the Book of Abraham text and much to study. As always, one looking for reasons to disbelieve can find them. In all matters of religion and even of history in general, there are usually enough unanswered questions and conundrums to allow for various conclusions.
In fact, one could say that there are good reasons for not accepting the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, or the claims of the Restored Gospel, just as there are good reasons for not believing in God, for rejecting Jesus Christ, and for rejecting the Bible.
Yes, I mean that, and Latter-day Saints need to understand that and be more understanding of those who reject our faith, including fellow Latter-day Saints who struggle or even choose to leave. We must be cautious not to judge them too harshly or to assume that their objections are just excuses for some hidden sin.
We must understand that there are plausible reasons that could lead an intelligent person sincerely seeking for truth to reject a claim that requires faith. In the day of Christ, the leading intellectuals and scholars presented long lists of arguments about why Christ was a con-man, a sinner, and a false prophet, with claims and teachings in plain violation of scripture and logic. There were sincere, intelligent people like Saul who could only see evil in the rise of the Christian cult. Others stumbled over particular doctrines, events, or practices.
The same obstacles exist in our day, more than ever, and those who struggle deserve love, patience, and respect. Most need more than just affirmations of our testimonies. They need to know that there are some intellectually plausible perspectives relating to apparent and sometimes real problems in our religion and history.
Don’t discount the problems they face. At least point them to resources from LDS defenders such as those at the Maxwell Institute (formerly FARMS), FAIRLDS.org, and other apologetic resources. I’ve tried to be a junior LDS apologist for several years since starting a website in 1994 and then the Mormanity blog in 2004, and have found it to be a fascinating experience.
I’ve learned much from those outside and within the Church through the dialogs we’ve had. Apologetics is not meant to convert anyone or prove anything, but to help remove some of the roadblocks to faith, to help people believe that maybe there are reasons to actually read and ponder the Book of Mormon, or to seek to understand if Jesus really is the Christ.
While sincere people have rejected our faith over some of the intellectual issues they see, others have received the help they need to understand that there are genuine answers to some of the questions bothering them and that there may be more to the Church than the slander they’ve heard.
Intellectually satisfying answers can help people open their minds and their hearts to the real converting power that comes through the Spirit of God.
That’s why apologetics matters to me and while I’ll keep trying to let people know there is more to the Gospel than they might think.
Thank you CC I know that the Lord is always watching over His children and wants them to receive every blessing He has to offer them!
Excerpt
In Luke 24
19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
***
24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
***
29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
This happen to me my eyes of understanding were open
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
I testify of these things in Jesus Christ name amen
We need to be charitable in each persons quest for Christ, but we must never be remiss in telling truth - even if it hurts someone’s feelings.
A. Questions about the Book of Mormon
* total lack of archeological support
* contradictions with other LDS scriptures
* abundant plaigarism of the KJV Bible
* key changes were made to the original version
* curious similarities to contemporaneous works of fiction
* confessions and defections of the other witnesses
B. Questions about Joseph Smith’s credibility:
* comparisons of himself to Jesus
* contradictions in accounts of his first vision
* his suspicious past and character
* false prophecies he made
* both sides of the story of his ‘martydom’ and early LDS persecution
* Smith’s reliability as a translator - the failed test of the Book of Abraham
* Smith’s ‘inspired’version of the Bible
C. Questions about the integrity of other Mormon Prophets
* major changes in Mormon doctrine and revelation
* polygamy, role of blacks, blood atonement
* deceptions by the LDS church
* changes in prophecy
* secret ceremonies and masonry
The gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect in its simplicity without need of finding “secrets” and hidden knowledge.
Fact One: Everyone, absolutely everyone has fallen short of God’s glorious holy standards for their lives.
Fact Two: God is holy and just therefore He punishes sin.
Fact Three: Jesus took our punishment for sin when He died upon the Cross.
CHURCH MEMBERSHIP CANNOT SAVE YOU
GOOD WORKS CANNOT SAVE YOU
THE BIBLE CALLS FOR “FAITH TOWARD OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST” Faith is putting “complete trust in Jesus Christ” as your ONLY means of clearing our guilt and delivering your soul from the punishment of hell.
Romans 10:9 “..If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED.” Jesus is saying to you right now...COME UNTO ME!
Drop the delusions of a mad man. Come to Christ right now in humility - and He will save you.
AMEN!
1- CHURCH MEMBERSHIP CANNOT SAVE YOU
In my testamony all of my learnings came from the Lord first before I read the BoM D&C POGP!
2- contradictions with other LDS scriptures
Such as?
There are a couple of glaring contradictions I found within Mormonism.
The first has to do with the Trinity as described in the Book of Mormon in Alma 11:44; Mosiah 15:5; 2 Nephi 31:21 versus the doctrine within LDS teachings that there are three gods dwelling bodily within the Godhead. For example:
Mormonism teaches there are many gods.
Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 5.
The Trinity is three separate gods.
James Talmage, Articles of Faith, 1985, p. 35.
The second has to do with polygamy. Polygamy is condemned in Jacob 1:15; 2:23,24,27,31;3:5; Mosiah 11:2,4; Ether 10:5,7.
But commanded in Doctrine and Covenants section 132.
Here is a list of Twelve Essential Mormon Doctrines not Found in the Book of Mormon......
If the Book of Mormon is the “most correct book of any on earth” (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 461), then why does it not contain essential Mormon doctrines such as...
1. Church organization
2. Plurality of Gods
3. Plurality of wives doctrine
4. Word of Wisdom
5. God is an exalted man
6. Celestial marriage
7. Men may become Gods
8. Three degrees of glory
9. Baptism for the dead
10. Eternal progression
11. The Aaronic Priesthood
12. Temple works of washings, anointing, endowments, sealing.
Well, according to the LDS plan of eternal progression, in that sense we are all “saved”. The only ones going to “hell” - aka the outer darkness, are Satan and his cohorts, and the sons of perdition (prominent LDS folks who reject the LDS teachings).
Everybody else goes to some level of heaven
Hry Resty, I know sometimes words mean different things when we discuss Christianity vs Mormonism. When you say "His children", how do you define that? In other words, what do LDS believe makes you a child of God?
Hry Resty, I know sometimes words mean different things when we discuss Christianity vs Mormonism.
When you say "His children", how do you define that?
In other words, what do LDS believe makes you a child of God?
***
God created all of His children and His children are given opportunity to choose their walk!
Cain chooses to follow Satan did he not?
You can argue doctrine all you want!
Things that are of the Lord persuaded a man to do good
Things that are of the Lord do not encourage contention for that is of the devil!
Things that are of the Lord give peace and comfort.
Thing that are not of the Lord create doubt and fear!
Those who want to contend or kill have nothing of the Lord in them.
"And Jesus has said so!
37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
John 8
37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham
John 14
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
When the spirit of contention is invited or has a seat at the table, the spirit of the Lord departs!
But we are not. We inherited our sin nature when we were born the first time and we must be born again (in the Spirit) to become adopted children of God.
Jesus is the one and only BEGOTTEN Son of God. The LDS staple, the King James version of the bible, spells it out in John 3:16
- For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
NOtice it says ONLY, not first.
The rest of us need to become God's ADOPTED children. How do we do this? John 1:12 and 13 are one of many passages that address this
12 But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. 13 They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.
It's really VERY GOOD NEWS! And it's for ecerybody!
Now, continue with John 8 about where you left off:
39 “Our father is Abraham!” they declared.
“No,” Jesus replied, “for if you were really the children of Abraham, you would follow his example.
40 Instead, you are trying to kill me because I told you the truth, which I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing.
41 No, you are imitating your real father.”
They replied, “We aren’t illegitimate children! God himself is our true Father.”
42 Jesus told them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, because I have come to you from God. I am not here on my own, but he sent me.
43 Why can’t you understand what I am saying? It’s because you can’t even hear me! 44 For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him.
That's how we are all born, as children of Satan, becasue sin came into the world.
I pray that you see the truth.
As Jesus says in John 8:34-36
34 Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave of sin. 35 A slave is not a permanent member of the family, but a son is part of the family forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you are truly free.
We all have sinned. Jesus is the only way to be set free and we must be born again in Him.
It's WONDERFUL news!
do what you want the point was contention is not of the Lord!
move the bar, jump your hoops, who cares the Lord is watching this crown act on FR RF
need to go
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