Posted on 02/23/2010 9:25:41 AM PST by stfassisi
That we strictly speaking don't know because the scripture does not say anything on that subject. But we know that the scripture is written in such a way to emphasize that both the wicked men and Noah acted on their free will.
The point you are now making is valid: the ability to do good is enabled by divine grace, and the scripture, here and eslewhere is very clear on that. You original point was that these verses somehow teach absense of free will, and that is flat contradicted by the verse itself, and its immediate context, as I pointed out in my previous post.
You seem to think one doesn’t contaminate the other.
I find no evidence of that assumption being true.
annalex said:
“But we know that the scripture is written in such a way to emphasize that both the wicked men and Noah acted on their free will.”
How do WE know that?
then annalex said:
“You original point was that these verses somehow teach absense of free will, and that is flat contradicted by the verse itself, and its immediate context, as I pointed out in my previous post.”
I am beginning to believe that you would argue that black was white if the magisterium told you it was so. Can you not even read plain language? You too are telling God what He means. You are taking God aside and rebuking Him. It will come to no good.
The text of Genesis is completely against you, as is the context of the chapter as a whole, Genesis as a whole, and the Holy Scriptures from beginning to end.
Again, I ask: HOW DO WE KNOW what you so breezily assert.
Further, God is shown regretting His act of creation, and after seeing Noah, changing His mind again. That, too, shows that all the actors in the picture were free agents.
5 And God seeing that the wickedness of men was great on the earth, and that all the thought of their heart was bent upon evil at all times, 6 It repented him that he had made man on the earth. And being touched inwardly with sorrow of heart, 7 He said: I will destroy man, whom I have created, from the face of the earth, from man even to beasts, from the creeping thing even to the fowls of the air, for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noe found grace before the Lord. 9 These are the generations of Noe: Noe was a just and perfect man in his generations, he walked with God.[...]
13 He said to Noe: The end of all flesh is come before me, the earth is filled with iniquity through them, and I will destroy them with the earth. 14 Make thee an ark...
The story is told as if God, the wicked men, and Noah are all three acting on their own will. Let us recall another time where Holy Moses shows God as if confused: when God is looking for Adam after Adam sinned. These literary devices are there so that a student of scripture may know that man has free will, which he can turn to good with Divine Grace.
So this is how we know, from the scripture in front of you.
literary devices?
Moses shows God as if confused?
Do you have like a decoder ring to help you read the secret meaning of the text?
Urim and Thummim?
A peep stone in a hat?
Wow. Simply breath taking. I have no response for your folly ... none.
Lets try this...Do you believe God “wills” some people for hell?
The text is in front of you. There is nothing I said that is not plain in the text.
Funny,... people identify with Roman Catholicism so easily, yet half of those I meet who claim at one time to be Roman Catholic, later profess either agnosticism, atheism, or appeal to New Age variation in doctrines and attribute it to Roman Catholicism.
For this reason alone, my skepticism of those who claim to be Catholic isn't as much an attack of Roman Catholicism, but rather a skepticism that most who appeal to RCC really don't either understand many Catholic doctrines or simply identify with the RCC in a worldly fashion as a religion associated with Christianity and seek to have worldly acceptance, possibly authority or religious morality over others.
Now, do I identify that behavior with the RCC? Not fully, as I suspect most who practice it really aren't RCC faithfully, but I have also met many who migrate towards the RCC and convolute with that mix of congregatinalists. Hard to tell.
Barna report: Variation in divorce rates among Christian faith groups:
Denomination (in order of decreasing divorce rate) % who have been divorced. Catholics and Lutherans have the lowest divorce rates.
Non-denominational ** 34%
Baptists 29%
Mainline Protestants 25%
Mormons 24%
Catholics 21%
Lutherans 21%
Perhaps there is something to be said for the image of The Blessed Mary who sacrificed everything, and humbly served her God and Family? Catholics are taught that the Blessed Mary is special, apparently some are taught that to even mention her, would make her son jealous. Is that the God you know? Me either. Thank you God for all your gifts. We love you, and have mercy on us. Pray for us, Blessed Mother full of Grace, that we may be more like you.
“Catholicism taught men that they were part of a community, the Mystical Body of Christ, guided by the Savior through the Church authorities, and made capable of aiding one another in their path to God. Community and authority were shown to be absolutely essential to man’s happiness and end.”
Pray for us, Blessed Mother full of Grace, that we may be more like you.
Amen!
A Night Prayer to Our Blessed Mother
Night is falling dear Mother, long day is o'er; Before thy image I am kneeling once more To thank thee for keeping me safe this day, To ask thee this night to keep evil away.
Many times have I fallen Mother dear; Many graces neglected since last I knelt here; Wilt thou not in pity, my own Mother Mild, Ask Jesus to pardon the sins of thy child?
I am going to sleep now, day's work is done; Its hours and its moments have passed one by one. God Who will judge me, has counted them all; He has numbered each grace, He has counted each fall;
In His book they are written against the last day. Oh! Mother Ask Jesus to wash them away. For one drop of His Blood for sinners was spilt, Is sufficient to cleanse the world of its guilt.
And if er' the dawn I should draw my last breath; The sleep I take be the long sleep of death; Be near me Mother for dear Jesus' sake. When at eternity shore my soul shall awake.
Amen.
Good Night. I wish you a blessed evening
Not the point. The point is that standards were established. Follow them.
In the interest of being even-handed, when one side is allowed an antagonistic title, the other should be able to respond in kind.
If it devolves into a flame war of thread titles (like the recent flame war of keywords) - I'll put a stop to it.
I got this far... There is nothing man can do that will ever destroy our Heavenly Father.... a man 'god' yes, but never the Creator.
stfassisi said:
“Lets try this...Do you believe God “wills” some people for hell?”
No.
Call John Calvin’s office for that one.
annalex said:
“The text is in front of you. There is nothing I said that is not plain in the text.”
Time to close this one out, annalex. I don’t have a decoder ring, Urim and Thummim, or peep stone in hat like you do, so I can’t play your game or participate in your reality. I am limited to just reading the text for what it says, so it is not plain to me ... nor, I’ll wager, to too many others.
Jesus said to the magisterium of His day, “You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.” (John 5:39-40) If you put those verses in your hat and look at them with your peep stone it will no doubt read, “... these are they which testify of free will.”
It is more than apparent that free will is the basis of your hermeneutic. It is the doctrine by which your church stands or falls, the doctrine you feel you must defend to the death. Well, you are welcome to it you poor soul.
Because it is very well written, and speaks the truth.
Nah, I'd say it is poorly written, poorly argued, and contains too many errors of fact. It's TRITE anti-Protestantism and anti-Americanism. If I want to read something by an Ultramontanist, I'll pick up something by Joseph de Maistre. He usually has something thoughtful and interesting to say, even when I disagree with him (which is often).
I am not going to sort out various brands of conservatism. What I read by Rao was Catholic apologetics similar to this article and I recommend them to anoyne. Since his political views got him banned from FR, I would not be able to defend them even if I wanted to.
I think your problem is that if you said what you want to say in Rao's defense, you'd probably get banned from FR. And rightly so.
EVERY man DESERVES hell, the wonder is that GOD chooses to save any !
Why, I am enjoying it immensely. Tell me again how
the thought of their heart was bent upon evil
or
he walked with God
show anything other than free will on the part of the thinker and the walker.
Examples, please.
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