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To: NYer; boatbum
The thing that worries me most is how they believe a man can forgive their sins against God for God. I would like to believe God honors their trying.

As you noted, Matthew 18 instructs us to forgive each other's sins. Is this not what Tiger Woods was seeking yesterday? However, that does not remove the effects of sin from the soul. Only God can do that and he does so through His minister on earth, the priest. 

That my have been what Tiger was seeking but you and I are not involved scripturally. He did not sin against you or I so we have nothing to forgive him for his act or acts of adultery.

Tiger's adulatory is only a sin against his wife and God the Father. They are the only two he needs to ask forgiveness from for his acts of adulatory and the only two who can grant that forgiveness if asked with contrition.

If you read the text I referenced earlier about Old Testament earthly priests you would realize God the Father is the only one who could  forgive the corporate sins of the people but only after the priests offered Him sacrifices in the manner He prescribed in great detail.

I also advised reading Hebrews. Especially chapters 7-8-9-10. You will see the Old Testament style earthly priesthood is no longer needed because the New Testament Priest, Jesus, is in heaven after offering God His Father the ultimate sacrifice, Himself.

God and God alone can forgive our sins against Him and does when we ask with contrition through the one time sin offering of His Christ.    

This sacrament is rooted in the mission God gave to Christ in his capacity as the Son of man on earth to go and forgive sins (cf. Matt. 9:6). Thus, the crowds who witnessed this new power "glorified God, who had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8; note the plural "men"). After his resurrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers, telling them, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21–23). Since it is not possible to confess all of our many daily faults, we know that sacramental reconciliation is required only for grave or mortal sins—but it is required, or Christ would not have commanded it

What part of forgiving sins and binding and loosing sins described by Christ in my post 48 is not required of you and I for God the Father to forgive our sins against Him?

How come when you and others use John 20:21-23 you never put it context with 19-20?

19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled,[c] for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.  

It says the disciples were gathered there. It was not limited to eleven people in that room. There were 120 men and women disciples a short time later at Pentecost. Do you suppose a few of them might have been there?

Let me see if I have this right. I can asked God in heaven for His blessings in prayer through Christ but I have to go through a non-scriptural earthly priest to gain forgiveness for my sins against God. 

With that kind of logic I can see how man thinks he can give degrees of severity and penance for a sin only God can forgive. God has already forgiven all our sins when we accept the only penance he has establish for all sins against Him, Christ's finished work. BVB


53 posted on 02/20/2010 11:25:39 AM PST by Bobsvainbabblings
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To: Bobsvainbabblings; boatbum
He did not sin against you or I so we have nothing to forgive him for his act or acts of adultery.

Sure he did. Our sins effect the community at large. Tiger Woods, by virtue of his golf skills, has received media attention making him a public figure. As such, his adultery touches the lives of those who benefit from his charitable foundations. Donors who may have been scandalized by his behavior, may choose not to contribute. Those dependent on the donations are then effected. The same is true in our own lives. When you lie, you not only sin but that sin effects others around you.

If you read the text I referenced earlier about Old Testament earthly priests you would realize God the Father is the only one who could forgive the corporate sins of the people but only after the priests offered Him sacrifices in the manner He prescribed in great detail.

That was true in the Old Testament. Jesus instituted the Sacrament of Penance and in so doing, provided a means for us to have our sins forgiven by God.

What part of forgiving sins and binding and loosing sins described by Christ in my post 48 is not required of you and I for God the Father to forgive our sins against Him?

You begin with Matthew 18:21, which is a continuation of what I posted. "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 18:18). Since he would not always be with the Church visibly, Christ gave this power to other men so the Church, which is the continuation of his presence throughout time (Matt. 28:20), would be able to offer forgiveness to future generations. He gave his power to the apostles, and it was a power that could be passed on to their successors and agents, since the apostles wouldn’t always be on earth either, but people would still be sinning.

God had sent Jesus to forgive sins, but after his resurrection Jesus told the apostles, "‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23). This is one of only two times we are told that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. It emphasizes how important the establishment of the sacrament of penance was.

It says the disciples were gathered there. It was not limited to eleven people in that room. There were 120 men and women disciples a short time later at Pentecost. Do you suppose a few of them might have been there?

120, 12, 200 ... what difference does that make? The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the apostles and the 120 in the Upper Room gave them the confidence and vision to go forth and preach all they had learned from Jesus. Their first task, under the presidency of Peter, was to agree on the minimum organization necessary to undertake their world mission, and the Acts of the Apostles reveals to us that from the very beginning the Church of God enjoyed the good order that came from a right understanding of the mind of Jesus.

The twelve apostles were the supreme authority in virtue of being the eyewitnesses specially selected by Jesus to control the development of the Church. Their Church was a living organism entirely independent of the theocratic state of Judaism and responsible to no one but God himself. While reverencing the Temple of God on account of its past associations, they were obliged to set up their own house churches (for example, the church in the house of John Mark's mother), where they were able to celebrate the Eucharistic rite of "the breaking of the bread" bequeathed to them by Jesus.

This, as well as their insistence on exact adherence to their teaching about him, led to the immediate emergence of a fellowship (based on baptism into Christ) that distinguished them from all other citizens of Jerusalem. Jesus himself, together with his Father and his Holy Spirit--the one Trinitarian God--was now the object of worship in the apostolic community of the Church of Jerusalem. But this "foreign body" of followers of Jesus had to justify its existence in the face of the fierce hostility of the unconverted high priests, Sadducees, Pharisees, Levites, and priests.

I can asked God in heaven for His blessings in prayer through Christ but I have to go through a non-scriptural earthly priest to gain forgiveness for my sins against God.

The priesthood is scriptural but that is a different discussion. For now, you are correct in one respect. We can and ought to go directly to God through Jesus Christ in repentance, prayer, and offering our spiritual sacrifices in union with him. But this is not an either/or proposition. We do not go either to God or to his representatives on this earth when we have needs. The Catholic Church and the Bible say we do both. For example, Romans 12:1–2 says, "I appeal to you, therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship." Here we see Paul encouraging all Christians to exercise their universal, "royal priesthood" before God and offer spiritual sacrifices directly to him. We Catholics agree that all Christians can and should do just that. But, analogous to what we see in the Old Testament, we also see a special group of men called by Christ to a ministerial priesthood in the New Testament. In fact, apostles (cf. Eph. 4:11), elders (Jas. 5:14), bishops (1 Tim. 3:1) function as priests in the New Testament.

Once again, we see our Lord definitively choosing and sending apostles to act as mediators between God and men (John 20:21–23). Jesus gave the power to forgive and retain sins to the apostles. This is a priestly ministry (cf. Lev. 19:21–22). In 2 Corinthians 2:10, Paul says, "If I have pardoned anything for your sakes I have done it in the person of Christ". Jesus not only gave the authority to forgive sins to the apostles, but he gave them divine, infallible authority to proclaim the gospel as well. "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" (Luke 10:16). This too is a priestly function. The apostles act in the place of God as mediators between God and men. In 2 Corinthians 2:17, Paul describes this priestly work as such: "For we are not as many, adulterating the word of God; but with sincerity, as from God, before God, in Christ we speak".

With that kind of logic I can see how man thinks he can give degrees of severity and penance for a sin only God can forgive. God has already forgiven all our sins when we accept the only penance he has establish for all sins against Him, Christ's finished work.

By that logic, I can go out tomorrow and kill anyone I choose, because God has already forgiven me.

56 posted on 02/20/2010 1:01:15 PM PST by NYer ("Where Peter is, there is the Church." - St. Ambrose of Milan)
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