Posted on 02/16/2010 9:26:07 AM PST by OldDeckHand
Joseph Reyes Baptized Daughter Without Informing Estranged Wife
A veteran of the war in Afghanistan could find out today if he'll get jail time for taking his daughter to church in defiance of a Chicago family court order obtained by his estranged wife.
The two are in a bitter divorce battle, and the question of what faith their child should be raised in is pushing the boundaries of child custody arrangements.
Reyes' decision to baptize his daughter without his wife's permission resulted in what some are calling an extraordinary court order: The Hon. Edward R. Jordan in the Circuit Court of Cook County, Ill., imposed a 30-day restraining order forbidding Joseph Reyes from, according to the document, "exposing his daughter to any other religion than the Jewish religion. …"
(Excerpt) Read more at abcnews.go.com ...
Considering this was my first post, how am I 'wrong' AGAIN?
Certainly there are examples of households accepting Christ, and in these examples the people involved are clearly making a choice. ALL recorded examples of actual baptisms cited in the Bible feature people who are making a decision.
See Acts 2:41, following the first gospel sermon: Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
How does one 'accept the message' to be 'added to their number' as an infant?
Consider Acts 8:26-39, the story about the conversion of the Ethiopian. The man enthusiastically demands to be baptized after he gains an understanding of the message.
You mention household conversions. One of the more famous ones was the household of Cornelius. When greeting Peter his reply as to what the purpose of summoning Peter to his home clearly demonstrates people who could understand the message: Acts chapter 10, verse 41"Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us."
Do you suppose the infants were listening to everything the Lord had commanded Peter to say?
Later in verse 47 Peter proclaims: "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."
Do you suppose babies receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
Another 'household' example is found in Acts 16:14-15: One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message. 15When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. "If you consider me a believer in the Lord," she said, "come and stay at my house." And she persuaded us.
Note that it was the Lord who 'opened her heart to respond' and that after being baptized she links this to becoming a "believer."
Are babies 'believers?'
Consider Acts 19:1-7
1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." 3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. 4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.
Paul's natural reaction to discovering these men did not have the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit was to incredulously ask 'Then what baptism did you receive?'
Clearly decisions are being made in all these cases.
Baptism is NOT a ritual dunking in the water. Peter states this unambiguously in 1 Peter 3:21-22:
21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
How does a baby engage in a "pledge of a good conscience" when being baptized?
Also note what baptism is not - not a simple physical act - the 'removal of dirt from the body.' It is a spiritual act, a 'pledge of a good conscience' that 'now saves you'
How does baptism 'save' you? Verse 21: 'It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ'
I'm looking forward to your reply citing some scripture (NOT traditions of men) regarding confirmation as being a valid concept by the way.
There are no biblical examples of this happening as far as I can see. The only CONCRETE examples we are given regarding baptism involve people who are able to make a decision at that moment, not other people making the decision for them.
This concept is borne out when you consider judgement. When you stand before God to answer for your life, you alone are responsible for all the words, thoughts and deeds you have done.
Not your parents, not your church, you.
Why should the end have a different standard than the beginning of our relationship with God?
Since in Yah'shua's day, baptism is a Mikvahshalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
or ritual immersion prior to going up to the temple.The origin of infant baptism is very suspect indeed.
The origin of infant baptism is very suspect indeed
O.K. how old was Jesus whem\n He was Circumcised.....the Jewish version of Christian Baptism......did 8 day old Jewish children understand their obligations to the Jewish religion.....maybe, but probably not......you keep your kids from being baptized until they are who knows how old....I will baptize mine shortly after birth.....I have nothing to lose, you do....pathetic
O.K. how old was Jesus whem\n He was Circumcised.....the Jewish version of Christian Baptism......did 8 day old Jewish children understand their obligations to the Jewish religion.....maybe, but probably not......you keep your kids from being baptized until they are who knows how old....I will baptize mine shortly after birth.....I have nothing to lose, you do....pathetic
The Holy Word of G-d in Luke tells us that Yah'shua He would have been circumcised on the Feast of Simcha Torah Since in the days of Yah'shua, baptism or Mikvah was only performed Yah'shua was, is and will always be a Jew Ruling and Reigning on the How do I know this, His Holy Word tells me. Yah'shua was circumcised on eighth day after his birth.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
was born on the YHvH commanded Feast of Tabernacles.
See John 1:14 where he became flesh and tabernacled among us.
( the Joy of the Holy Word of G-d)
by adults in preparation to going up to the temple, infant baptism is
extremely suspect.
throne of King David from Jerusalem for a thousand years.
Not the traditions of man.
Jesus was eight days old when circumcised, and you are right to compare baptism to circumcision, they are both signs of covenant-making.
But let's go apples to apples...How old was our LORD when he was BAPTIZED?
(30 years old) To be sure, the Creator, the living WORD, did not need to be baptized, he was without sin!
Matthew 3:13-17 reads:
13Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John.
14But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"
15Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.
16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
17And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
He made a conscious decision to obey, which is what baptism is, not something done without your consent.
Each of us stand before God at judgement and nothing is hidden before him.
12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
How is an unborn child, murdered in the womb, going to 'give an account?'
A just and holy God judges each of us based on our own sins, not Adam's.
(See 2 Kings 14:6, quoting Deuteronomy 24:16):
Yet he did not put the sons of the assassins to death, in accordance with what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses where the LORD commanded: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins."
Baptising infants/children springs from a fear that they will die with unforgiven sin in them, but dunking a person in water is a meaningless act unless the mind is engaged in submission to the Redeemer.
Since God tells us very clearly that a child is not held responsible for the sins of his father, why are you concerned with the sins of the physical father of us all? (Adam)
Granted, there is a penalty we suffer because of Adam, namely mortality, but this is distinct from our soul.
Romans chapter 5 is a great instruction for us that the sin of Adam resulted in death entering the creation. Conversely the righteousness of Jesus conferred eternal life. Verse 12 says: death came to all men, because all sinned
How does a baby sin, FRiend?
But let’s go apples to apples...How old was our LORD when he was BAPTIZED?
Who cares, baptism wasn’t introduced until He was 30 or so years old...He was circunsized at eight days old...a clear sign that infants should “follow the law”....infants, of course cannot sin, but they can and do bear the burder of original sin, that of Adam and Eve....go ahead and let your kids potentially suffer from your ignorance, I’ll have mine baptized and take no chances whatsoever......are you awake??? do you think , even for a moment, that almighty God would reject a baptism because the person was too young???????what then would be the EXACT, to the day, age of baptism.....pathetic
Yah’shua was circumcised on eighth day after his birth.
yeah, we all know that....you seem to have ultimate respect for Jesus (His name), why don’t you actually study who He was, what He did, what the prophets said about His, how He fulfilled all the old testament prophocies and why He said that He was your savior (He is you know). It amazes me that people can be so learned in religion, and not see the apparent....Mormars, Moslems and Jews, those who recognize Christ, and still deny Him.....it’s like denying daylight
What you said seems to be an attack on someone, I'm not sure who. May you come to know the creator of the universe. I do not seems to follow you.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
I do not seems to follow you.
I’m really not that hard to follow...In your posts you seem to have a knowledge of Jewish/Christian religion and their similarities and differences. I simply cannot understand how one could be cognizant of the bible, christianity, judaism; know their histories, and still deny that Christ was exactly who He said He was.....I and the Father are one....when you have seen me, you have seen the Father, I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me......Do you think Christ was a nice guy but a complete liar?????He was God, not a prophet, not a seer, not a soothsayer, not a wizard.....HE was and is fully man and fully God.....if He wasn’t all is for naught
You also have the unfortunate tendency to throw out 'pathetic' when you can not even back up your assertions with any scripture.
How about dropping the huffy attitude and look at the scriptures I quoted and show me why I'm wrong?
His NAME Yah'shua means YHvH be{is} my salvation. There is only ONE YHvH. I and the Father are one. If you have seen me you have seen the Father. Yah'shua (Jesus) came to provide the salvation
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
that He (YHvH) promised in scriptures from Genesis.
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