Posted on 02/15/2010 9:07:17 AM PST by GonzoII
Obviously it is not beyond dispute..
We have to consider that in light of other scriptures and symbols.. one an not isolate it and make it what one wants Scripturally,
In scripture Israel is spoken of as a woman,(Isaiah 54:1-6, Jeremiah 3:20, Ezekiel 16:8-14, and Hosea 2:19-20). and the wife of God .The "crown "on her head represents the tribes of israel
This vision is very close to the vision given to Joseph in Gen where the sun , moon and stars represent Israel
No way does Mary fit even Rev 12, much less the whole counsel of Scripture.
Welcome to being WRONG yet again.
INDEED.
Rev 17:1-6...«
One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me,”Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries».
Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. This title was written on her forehead»:
MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
The desert is not a good location are you sure mary was there?
This is one of my main concerns, when Mariology enters the picture suddenly she becomes the center of scripture, it makes correct exegesis impossible
By reading the scripture and obeying the Gospel.
Romans 1
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Sorry it’s posted up there for all to read for themselves, no back tracking
the OT is all about Jesus HE is the fulfillment of the OT not Mary
Luke 24 . 20The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.”
25He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
All the writers of the NT quote the OT to point to Christ
I understand that is the dogma of your faith the first time you stated it. I don't even dispute it in full; I just dispute the part that plainly contradicts the Bible. When the physical birth of Jesus is mentioned, Mary is mentioned and not Israel in any sense, except perhaps in a very indirect sense of the Jewish race producing her, Mary. That is true for the gospels of Luke and Matthew, and is no less true for the Apocalypse, or Genesis 3:15. These are all references to the Incarnation.
Will you teach me how to read the scripture? Shall I take my little bible and use blackout whenever I see “woman and Israel” mentioned? How about if I just pencil in “Mary” every time I see the word “woman”?
The words of Rabbi Paul should be a warning to the entire wobbly edifice of Protestantism. Ignore the gospel long enough, listen to your own pastors, and you end up losing all connection with Christ.
Yes, Jesus lived His life as a Jew, and so did many of his Catholic saints. We rejoice today with every Jewish convert. Catholic is the fullness of Judaism, and true Jewish home for all. This is one of the meanings of “catholic”.
Of course.
What makes you think any Catholic would disagree with Rabbi Peter?
Yes, I am aware of the human genealogy and Kingship of Jesus. So that makes every “woman” in the Bible Israel?
That is true, and that is the totality of Mary's special mission. All of the rest of her commission here is exactly the same as for every other member of the Body of Christ. There is nothing in scripture to indicate otherwise, and the words of Christ show clearly that she was one of the sheep, and nothing more; not even an apostolic gift.
That is so, and all these are prophecies of the coming of Christ, but what does it have to do with the specific scripture on hand, where that allegory clearly is not the primary meaning, given the physical birth of Jesus described?
1Then the word of the LORD came to me saying,
2"Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who prophesy, and say to those who prophesy from their own inspiration, 'Listen to the word of the LORD!
3'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Woe to the foolish prophets who are following their own spirit and have seen nothing.
4"O Israel, your prophets have been like foxes among ruins.
5"You have not gone up into the breaches, nor did you build the wall around the house of Israel to stand in the battle on the day of the LORD.
6"They see falsehood and lying divination who are saying, 'The LORD declares,' when the LORD has not sent them; yet they hope for the fulfillment of their word.
7"Did you not see a false vision and speak a lying divination when you said, 'The LORD declares,' but it is not I who have spoken?"'"
8Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, "Because you have spoken falsehood and seen a lie, therefore behold, I am against you," declares the Lord GOD.
9"So My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations They will have no place in the council of My people, nor will they be written down in the register of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel, that you may know that I am the Lord GOD.
17"Now you, son of man, set your face against the daughters of your people who are prophesying from their own inspiration. Prophesy against them
18and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Woe to the women who sew magic bands on all wrists and make veils for the heads of persons of every stature to hunt down lives! Will you hunt down the lives of My people, but preserve the lives of others for yourselves?
19"For handfuls of barley and fragments of bread, you have profaned Me to My people to put to death some who should not die and to keep others alive who should not live, by your lying to My people who listen to lies."'"
20Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am against your magic bands by which you hunt lives there as birds and I will tear them from your arms; and I will let them go, even those lives whom you hunt as birds.
21"I will also tear off your veils and deliver My people from your hands, and they will no longer be in your hands to be hunted; and you will know that I am the LORD.
22"Because you disheartened the righteous with falsehood when I did not cause him grief, but have encouraged the wicked not to turn from his wicked way and preserve his life,
23therefore, you women will no longer see false visions or practice divination, and I will deliver My people out of your hand Thus you will know that I am the LORD."
First, what the scripture tells us the scripture tells us. However, the desert Mary flew to is prepared for her by God, and Satan cannot reach her other than by rivers of Protestant slander. So, yes, apparently, a different desert.
Thank you though for reminding me that “woman” in “the prophecies” can just as easily be Babylon.
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