Posted on 02/15/2010 9:07:17 AM PST by GonzoII
The Scenario:
Ever have one of those days when you’re feeling full of energy and vigor? I mean, you’re feeling just obnoxiously happy? Well, this is one of those days.
Driving home from work, you switch on the radio to see what’s happening, and you tune in to a local Protestant radio station just in time to hear a preacher speaking against various Catholic doctrines concerning Mary. The show is called Pastor Bob’s Bible Hour. Pastor Bob proclaims: “Jesus knew Catholics would come along and begin to worship His mother and call her perpetual virgin and absurd things like that. But the Bible says: ‘Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And are not His brethren James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all of His sisters with us?’ (Matt. 13:55-56a). And isn’t it sad, my brothers and sisters?”
Pastor Bob goes on to say: “Jesus dealt with these Mary worshippers in His day. In Luke 11:27-28, the Bible says, ‘A woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts that You sucked!” But He said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”’”
On a normal day you would probably just listen, take a few mental notes and drive on. But not this time. You’re feeling a little bit too saucy. You take the first exit you see and head for a phone. This is just one more reason why you need to buy that cell phone you’ve been talking about getting.
Step One:
(Excerpt) Read more at envoymagazine.com ...
“God did not tell them to select another or that they had the authority to do so, this like much of the teachings of the Roman church, was the will of man so they could hang onto a non existent tradition.”
So you consider Judas to be the 12th Apostle then?
“Jesus never indicated or taught there was to be an ongoing apostolate... or that it was His will that there be one”
Actually, yes he did, lets go to Acts 1:20-22, again.
For,” said Peter, “it is written in the book of Psalms,
‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’ and,
“ ‘May another take his place of leadership.’
Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”
Couple things to notice here.
1, who is the one saying it? It’s Peter. Peter has been granted an office, and the very first part of Acts confirms that Peter has authority over the other Apostles.
2, we see here that the method by which the office of the apostles was not to be continued.
So you have two choices here, reject the biblical evidence set forth that the Apostles themselves extended their authority, or accept scripture and that the authority of the apostles has been passed down is not an invention of the Catholic church.
The only question is not whether the authority has been passed down, but to whom that the authority has been received.
I’ve been as simple and straight-forward as possible.
Which will save you faith in Jesus Christ or being a member of the RCC? It is never good to mix truth w/ lies.
I simply had to discard all the extra stuff - it was simply baggage slowing me down. You ‘run the race’ - faith - to win the prize - heavenly rewards. But heaven is a free gift that you can do nothing to earn. Too bad the christian religions miss the easy obvious truths of God.
Answer me this are any of our leaders or even the pope part of the aristocracy? IOW are they better than the rest of us?
If you ask that question of the Bible the answer is simple - be humble - a servant to all but do not look down on the poor, the lowly or those less fortunate.
The reason I love FR is that it helps to find and throw off most all the lies of our culture.
Have you spent anytime reading through the entire Bible?
The Jewish people insisted upon God allowing them to appoint a leader yet time and time again God told them they would regret it. If we were true to our faith and our God we would not have a need for leaders (i.e. the pope, the president, etc.) Even George Washington only reluctantly assumed the office of president - apparently he understood the relationship between mand and God better than his peers.
“Which will save you faith in Jesus Christ or being a member of the RCC? It is never good to mix truth w/ lies.”
Strong words. Have I ever said that membership in the RCC is essential for salvation? It’s not. I believe the RCC has the fullness of Christ’s teachings and that the Church Christ established is the RCC. I also believe that other Christians and believers are my brothers and sisters.
“I simply had to discard all the extra stuff - it was simply baggage slowing me down.”
What kinds of baggage?
“Too bad the christian religions miss the easy obvious truths of God.”
You are aware that James says that Faith without Works is dead?
“Answer me this are any of our leaders or even the pope part of the aristocracy? IOW are they better than the rest of us?”
What, Papa Benedict? No, he wasn’t he was the son of a German police officer. Pope John Paul II was the son of a Polish army officer. Pope John Paul I was the son of an Italian bricklayer.
Where have we said, any of us, that the Pope is better than anyone else? He has a higher office, in that he is pope, but that is through the grace of God, to challenge him with such a position.
“The reason I love FR is that it helps to find and throw off most all the lies of our culture.”
Really. I’ll ask you again, what exactly did the Church put forth on Mary in 1850. You seem unsure of precisely what they said then.
“Have you spent anytime reading through the entire Bible?”
Have, I? Yes I have. I’ve read every book at least once, but most of them several times over. My favourite is Romans, then Job and then Ecclesiastes.
“If we were true to our faith and our God we would not have a need for leaders”
This is not what Christ taught. Christ appointed the 12 to serve as his disciples and his apostles and to spread the word of God. They were to be the leaders of His Church.
You may personally prefer no leaders, but this is not what Christ taught. It may be what Menno Simons who originated the idea 15 centuries later taught, but it’s not supported by the Gospels.
Lets look at it
1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:
John called this a SIGN not a replay of a previous event
2 And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered.
Birth pains are a result of the curse of original sin.. If Mary was born without original sin, she would not have "travailed" in pain..the pain was the pain of Israel under Roman authority at the time of Christ's birth
Scripturally Joseph’s dream (Genesis 37:9-11) indicates that this is Israel
3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems:
Was there a red dragon there ready to eat the child?
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her a thousand two hundred sixty days.
Mary never fled into the desert for 1260 days
7 And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels:
8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: because the accuser of our brethren is cast forth, who accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of the testimony, and they loved not their lives unto death.
12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you that dwell therein. Woe to the earth, and to the sea, because the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman, who brought forth the man child:
14 And there were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the desert unto her place, where she is nourished for a time and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Mary never grew wings and flew away ... or at least I never saw a picture or painting of that ???
Eagle’s Wings are an emblem from the Exodus deliverance (Exodus 19:4), again seeming to be a symbol of Israel
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth after the woman, water as it were a river; that he might cause her to be carried away by the river.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the river, which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Again seeming to be a connection between Israel and the church today... which are the seed of Abraham
The Catholic church does not get to take the 1st part of the revelation and then skip the middle and move to the end to apply it . EITHER IT IS ALL ABOUT MARY or as John says ..it is a sign
As I have said.. The queen of heaven is a Pagan title..not one applied to that lowly handmaiden of the lord
Yea they sure did, the question was did God give them that right..the fact that one hears nothing more of Matthias in scripture...But the one chosen, not by men...but God (Paul)...was the churches primary teacher and theologian
The fact that the apostles took on themselves, at Peters urgings, the role of Christ, just shows that Peter was not infallible in matters of faith
LOL.... The church looking for a goddess made Mary one...The woman is a symbol, a sign..it is Israel
“John called this a SIGN not a replay of a previous event”
A sign can be both that which is, but unseen, or that which is unseen and yet to come, or even that which has already occurred. Or also all three as well.
The interpretation of the past, has a reference to her annunciation, to the virgin birth, “travail” simply means labour. The dragon is Satan, waiting to consume her child. Verse 5 refers to Christ. Verse 6 would refer to her flight after his crucifixion. Verses 7 to 9, refer to Christ breaking the power of Hell. Verses 10, refer to salvation and redemption and his resurrection. Verse 11 to her assumption.
As you’ve noted the end verses seem to refer to us in the time of today, where the serpent has waged war on her children. This is why Mary is called the second eve, in foreshadowing going all the way back to Genesis.
You are right, that the passage is either all or nothing, but don’t get tripped up by the highly symbolic language of the apocalypse.
"The queen of heaven, does make a nice statue though
“Yea they sure did, the question was did God give them that right”
Yes, he did.
Matthew 16:17-19
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Christ gave peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven, an authority which we see him exercise throughout Acts.
“the fact that one hears nothing more of Matthias in scripture”
This is an argument from silence.
“But the one chosen, not by men...but God (Paul)...was the churches primary teacher and theologian.”
Not so. Paul says of himself that he is the least of the Apostles. For he was not there at the beginning, and persecuted the Christians. Paul would never have said of himself that he was the primary teacher and theologian, and we must be careful not to place our own assumptions over his.
“The fact that the apostles took on themselves, at Peters urgings, the role of Christ, just shows that Peter was not infallible in matters of faith.”
Rather it shows that you’ve not understood the authority that Christ vested in Peter. It’s right there in Matthew. The power to bind and loose, the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
“Did she have labor pain..(careful here..one doctrine could conflict with another)”
As you’ve said this is symbolic. If she can ‘give birth’ to Israel, as in your interpretation, would it not make sense that this also refers to the Virgin birth?
“Does she have eagles wings?”
Was Peter made of Rock? C’mon. You are smarter then this. You’ve already given the figurative interpretation of what’s being said here.
“Did she flee into the desert?”
After Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection? I believe so.
“Catholics are so anxious to make the scriptures all about Mary...sorry they are all about Christ.. God the Father does not need a Goddess Queen..Christ does not need a Goddess Queen, the church is His bride..”
And we do not regard her as a Goddess! Why do you keep repeating something that you know to be false? Look, I understand that you don’t love Mary, but that’s your own blind spot. We all have them. Mary is the Theotokos, and one interpretation of this passage refers to Mary. There are other interpretations, some of which speak of the Tribulation yet to come.
Christ gave peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven, an authority which we see him exercise throughout Acts
Sorry your reading of this is faulty...Notice that what Jesus says her is FUTURE TENSE
Peter was not singled out . The keys were actually given to the church. These scriptures are about church discipline ..NOT INFALLIBILITY OR THE PAPCY
Whatever the keys might mean to you...the "power of the key was given to all the apostles at the same time,,
Matt 18:15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. 16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
No where in scripture does Christ give away an attribute of God the Father (infallibility )
If you choose to ignore what Scripture says about idolatry and worshiping false gods that's your business. A lot of Christians have pointed out the error. The response from RC's is to try and split the atom by saying bowing down, or kneeling to images of Mary is not worship.
The Marian heresy is going to destroy your church as a Christian assembly. It is evolving into a Marian assembly and everybody in your church seems to be okay with it.
The intent does not matter,,when the Jews danced around the golden calf they BELIEVED it was a God..as did every Pagan that worshiped on the high places.. what they thought or believed did not matter..what God believes is what matters..
“so who ever thought up making Mary into a pagan idol.”
Who made her into a pagan idol?
Are all statues idolatry, or only the ones of Mary?
While I was in the Catholic church, no one clearly presented the message of the Gospel - the free gift for all of mankind of Jesus sacrifice on the cross. The traditions and beliefs track back to different centuries and popes and are cloaked in mystery, while the teachings of Jesus in the new testament are fairly plain and straight-forward.
The baggage is all the extra-biblical teachings that are under constant revision. Yes. I’m aware of James teaching on ‘faith without works’ (since I’ve read the entire Bible) and spent considerable time in the NT. Are you also aware of the test of our works by fire at the end of our lives? Which says the selfish true-believer who holds fast to the faith will still get into heaven but likens it to a man escaping a burning house with only the clothes on his back? The one where his works are tested by fire and none remain? That verse kinda helps us to understand how the thief on the cross is saved - to whom Jesus declared ‘this day you will be with me in paradise’ even though we are not privy to any of his good works.
If anyone is truly expected to believe all that the RCC teaches then there should be plain simple scriptural verses to back up the unique RCC beliefs.
I admit to being unsure of precisely what the church teaches and not just on Mary. The ‘evolution’ of the doctrines of Mary show up in AD - 107, 431, 649, 1476, 1555, 1858, 1870, 1950 etc. (per wikipedia) - all these years and significance may vary depending upon the source too.
I can read and understand the Bible fairly well but the RCC teachings are truly and unnecessarily complicated. And let’s not forget the original practice of infant baptism by submersion in the middle -ages where many babies lives were lost due to pneumonia and other sicknesses in winter. Didn’t Jesus take himself to be baptized and does the Bible not teach that it is a symbol of our salvation? When was that thief on the cross baptized?
I won’t bother to answer anymore of your questions until/unless you go back and address all the ones I posed to you. I think it’s is fairly easy for anyone to form their own search arguments rather than expect it from other FR posters.
The TITLE Queen of heaven is a pagan title predating the writing of this Book.. someone made the decision to give Mary the pagan title
I do not know about Wm..but my church does not have a cross of any type ..but even the churches I have attended that have crosses no one kneels before them .. or venerates them ... we do not light candles or place flowers before them either
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