Church of England Declares Evolution, Faith Are Compatible

Christian Post ^ | 02/13/2010 | Nathan Black

[Zionist Conspirator]

Perhaps the most important thing I could say (I've said it before, but not very often) is that there are and always have been people who know the secrets of Creation. This knowledge is not from scientific research but Divine Revelation--however, it is esoteric and "may not be expounded before more than two people." These are the only people who know (as much as flesh and blood can) what actually happened, and they are not going to tell the world.

I believe Rabbi 'Eliyashev, the Gedol HaDor (and perhaps even Nesi' of Israel in this generation) has received this knowledge.

[annalex]

But the scripture — the scripture you do not dispute — makes it very clear to all. As does the scientific evidence, I might add.

[reasonisfaith]

You mean like when I moved the goal post from asking for genetic evidence and transitional forms all the way over to where I asked for genetic evidence and transitional forms?

[stormer]

You probably don’t even understand the irony of what you’ve written.

[annalex]

Again, if it is your claim that the theory of evolution makes sense, it should be short work to explain how, rather than snarling around.

So far, what we know from science as facts: that phenotype is not heritable, that random mutations, also known as birth defects, do not end like Hollywood movies with two mutants kissing passionately on the beach, that there is no continuum of fossils species A to species B — falsifies your theories. You may get viruses and bacteria to successfully mutate. That is about it. It does not transfer to lesser probabilities.

[stormer]

As I said before, no evidence I can produce, regardless of its import, will be regarded by you as sufficient. This is not the fault of the evidence, but of you, and I'm afraid I won't be baited by your straw men. I would point out however, you don't seem to understand the concept of falsification and its impact on the scientific method.

[annalex]

Aha. Rather than psychoanalyzing me, show me. That’s what scientists do.

[Zionist Conspirator]

But the scripture — the scripture you do not dispute — makes it very clear to all. As does the scientific evidence, I might add.

I'm not getting the point. You're denying the esoteric teachings? I thought only Protestants believed that the humblest milkmaid could read the Bible and understand it perfectly.

[annalex]

Yes, Catholic Christians deny hidden revelation. Now, that is not the same as the milkmaid theory, which is wrong. The revealed truth may be very hard to grasp, especially for a proverbial milkmaid, but there is no intention on the part of God to hide them. The perfect example of that, is, by the way, the revelation of nature. No one said milkmaids should take the commanding heights of science. But God gave us the universe the laws of which we can apprehend over time. It is not a closed book.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Yes, Catholic Christians deny hidden revelation. Now, that is not the same as the milkmaid theory, which is wrong. The revealed truth may be very hard to grasp, especially for a proverbial milkmaid, but there is no intention on the part of God to hide them. The perfect example of that, is, by the way, the revelation of nature. No one said milkmaids should take the commanding heights of science. But God gave us the universe the laws of which we can apprehend over time. It is not a closed book.

::Sigh:: I'm sorry you feel that way.

Do you believe the secrets of the Chariot (Ezekiel 1) are equally accessible?

[annalex]

They are mysterious, and perhaps not accessible at all, as are, to be sure the Holy Mysteries of the Church. But there was no intention to hide, they were, after all, revealed to Ezekiel.

[Zionist Conspirator]

They are mysterious, and perhaps not accessible at all, as are, to be sure the Holy Mysteries of the Church. But there was no intention to hide, they were, after all, revealed to Ezekiel.

Yes, but not to everyone.

The chapter is there for all to read, but the mysteries are another matter.

[annalex]

Ezekiel though addressed his book to everyone.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Ezekiel though addressed his book to everyone.

Well, primarily Israel but secondarily everyone.

But the Book of Ezekiel does not explicate ma`asey-hamerkavah. That belongs to sod, the "secret" aspect of Torah.

[annalex]

It does not explicate something in order to hide it or because it cannot be explained in words?

Here’s an example. I believe that there is a meaning in Orthodox icons that cannot be expressed in any other way but through the icons. If one asks, I basically wave my hands in the air or pile up words that means something for me, but mean nothing for the questioner. But, I would like to explain. Likewise, the iconographers try their hardest to explain, this is why they try to write truer icons. Their meaning is inaccessible to very many, but it is not a hidden meaning.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Annalex, there is simply no need in our continuing to argue back and forth about this. You simply don't accept the existence of legitimate esoteric teachings.

I'm not the one who made all this up. Find a chakham with whom to argue about it.

[annalex]

I am simply trying to clarify the Catholic position as best I know it, and to learn something from you in the process.

[Zionist Conspirator]

I am simply trying to clarify the Catholic position as best I know it, and to learn something from you in the process.

Judaism is not a salvational religion. It is primarily a legal/statutory religion that has ancient traditions of both intellect and mysticism.

Like Catholicism, Judaism has a "four-fold sense" when it comes to Torah interpretation. These four senses are peshat (the simple meaning), remez (allusions found in the sizes, shapes, and mathematical value of the letters, in acrostics, unusual spellings, etc.), derash (the moral/homiletic meaning), and sod (secret).

So far as I know, one can be a perfectly good Jew without knowing the esoterica. One is only supposed to begin studying Qabbalah at age forty after having mastered the Miqra'ot and Talmud, and there are still those rationalist schools that reject it.

As I understand it, the secrets contained in Leviticus 18 (not the mitzvot incumbent on every Jew, but secret knowledge encoded at a very deep level) is to be expounded before no more than three people at once; ma`asey Vere'shit (the mysteries of Creation) before no more than two people, and ma`asey haMerkavah (the mysteries of the Chariot) before only one person.

I can only tell you so much, because I only know so much.

[annalex]

Thank you. I did not know that about Judaism, and I don’t think there is anything similar in Catholicism — about not telling that is.

[Cronos]

Evolution of modern animals from one to another is scientific. If you project this backwards, you move into conjecture and guesses (there is no 100% way to prove it) and that is not scientific but philosophical. True Science is 100% compatible with religion as they are in completely different spheres (science studies the mechanism of the observable world while religion deals with the invisible, supernatural world)