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To: MarkBsnr
The practice of self abuse does not have any roots in the gospel . Did it become a practice of the Catholic church , yea..but that does not mean it is pleasing to God, it just means it pleases men.

Self injury or self flagellation was a pagan practice. It was not practiced by the early Christian church. We do not believe the flesh is evil or that beating it brings it under submission . Scripture tells us our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit..

Pagan practice

129 posted on 02/18/2010 12:51:43 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
The practice of self abuse does not have any roots in the gospel.

Not in your interpretation of it.

130 posted on 02/18/2010 12:53:57 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: RnMomof7
The practice of self abuse does not have any roots in the gospel . Did it become a practice of the Catholic church , yea..but that does not mean it is pleasing to God, it just means it pleases men.

Self mortification does not please men. Unless you mean the masochists, who are not normally considered religious mystics.

Self injury or self flagellation was a pagan practice. It was not practiced by the early Christian church. We do not believe the flesh is evil or that beating it brings it under submission . Scripture tells us our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit..

The term "mortification of the flesh" comes from Saint Paul in this quote: "For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live".[1] The same idea is seen in the following verses: "Put to death what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry".[2] "And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires".[3]

According to Christian exegesis, "deeds of the body" and "what is earthly", refer to the "wounded nature" of man or his concupiscence, evil inclinations due to forming part of the Fall of Man - humanity that suffered the consequences of the original sin.

Thus, Jesus expected believers to repent from slavery to their fleshes' desires: "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes".

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortification_of_the_flesh.

Examples from the OT of mortification include Isaiah 22:12 The Lord, the LORD Almighty, called you on that day to weep and wail, to tear out your hair and put on sackcloth. But see, there is joy and revelry, slaughtering of cattle and killing of sheep, eating of meat and drinking of wine! "Let us eat and drink," you say, "for tomorrow we die!" The LORD Almighty has revealed this in my hearing: "Till your dying day this sin will not be atoned for," says the Lord, the LORD Almighty."

Pulling out one's hair is a form of mortification.

132 posted on 02/18/2010 4:26:49 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: RnMomof7
It is true that excessive self flagellation was condemned and the practitioners thrown out of the Church. However, some mortification was actually encouraged. Sometimes it was difficult for the Church Fathers to distinguish the line...

The Flagellant movement did not arise until the 1200s, but there were always elements in the early Church. Some of the practices came from the OT extravagance of penance such as:

Ezra 9:[3] When I heard this, I rent my garments and my mantle, and pulled hair from my head and beard, and sat appalled. [4] Then all who trembled at the words of the God of Israel, because of the faithlessness of the returned exiles, gathered round me while I sat appalled until the evening sacrifice. [5] And at the evening sacrifice I rose from my fasting, with my garments and my mantle rent, and fell upon my knees and spread out my hands to the LORD my God, [6] saying: "O my God, I am ashamed and blush to lift my face to thee, my God, for our iniquities have risen higher than our heads, and our guilt has mounted up to the heavens. [7] From the days of our fathers to this day we have been in great guilt; and for our iniquities we, our kings, and our priests have been given into the hand of the kings of the lands, to the sword, to captivity, to plundering, and to utter shame, as at this day.

Jeremiah 41:5 eighty men arrived from Shechem and Shiloh and Sama'ria, with their beards shaved and their clothes torn, and their bodies gashed, bringing cereal offerings and incense to present at the temple of the LORD.

1 Corinthians 9:27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

[cf. NIV, Beck: "beat"; NEB: "bruise"; Williams: "beating and bruising"; Barclay: "batter"; NASB: "buffet"; NRSV: "punish"; NKJV: "discipline"; Wuest: "I beat my body black and blue and make it my abject slave"; Amplified: "I buffet my body -- handle it roughly, discipline it by hardships -- and subdue it"; Goodspeed: "I beat and bruise my body and make it my slave"; Moffatt: "I maul and master my body"

from http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2010/02/biblical-evidence-for-penitential.html

Now, it is not and never has been the doctrine of the Church that one must inflict deliberate injuries, but rather in the manner of fasting and penitance that one should act.

139 posted on 02/22/2010 12:49:43 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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