Where Is That Taught in the Bible?

I accept your apology and extend my heartfelt wishes that you will accept mine as well. I guess we do get a little testy with each other, which sad to say is what Lucifer likes and desires.

The church believes that Scripture is one of the three pillars of truth by which Catholics may know Jesus and love Jesus and by which the grace that Jesus freely gives may be received. The few doctrines that are binding on Catholics did not come from some obscure place, but were accepted teachings that were challenged, just as you challenge them today. One would have to ignore the truth to discount the fact that 1)the church existed before the NT and 2)The NT itself has John admitting that there was much more that Jesus said and did not contained in Scripture. The whole world could not hold all the books that could be written if they were.

John also tells us that what was written was done so in order that we might know Jesus and be saved.

There is a very real sense in the protestant world that Catholics discount Scripture as secondary to Tradition and the Magisterium. Nothing could be further from the truth. They are all three equally important because they support and defend each other. Where one is the other two are as well. It’s kind of like the doctrine of the Trinity(not explicitly but implicitly found in Scripture)whereby

There is one God but three persons. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So, and please don’t think that I equate anything to God, merely using it as an illustration. Where one is so too is the others. They cannot be separated, yet they are each a different manifestation of God. The Son is not God the father, but he is God and the Holy Spirit is not the Son or the father, but he is God.

I don’t explain things well and sometimes use the wrong words to get my point across, but I hope you understand what I am saying here. I also believe that everything in Scripture is good and helpful for my salvation. But, I also accept that it is not the only means to know Jesus.

These are general questions for any of the Roman Catholic followers of this thread: First, where are the faithful of the Old Testament now? To the best of your understanding, what does your magisterium teach on this matter? And, of course, since the title of this thread is “Where is that in the Bible?”, Scriptural references would be appreciated. Second, are the Holy Scriptures of the Old Testament understood to be Scripture in the same sense and with the same authority as those of the New?

I ask these two questions because some of the discussion of the last few days has left me rather confused as to how Roman Catholic theology deals with these issues. In the spirit of honesty, I must confess that I will almost certainly disagree with you, since I have on many other issues already. But I am genuinely interested in how you understand these things. Thank you in advance for any information you care to provide.

Thank you for your response. I see your position and think you explained it well enough that I could follow what you meant to say and while I can’t agree with the position theologically, I am glad that we are not sniping at each other and for my part I am sorry I was so aggressive in my responses to you. I know that “a soft answer turns away wrath” and I should have couched my words in a better tone and sought a better way to say what I wished to convey. Thank you for accepting my apology and I certainly accept yours as well. Take care!

general questions for any of the Roman Catholic followers of this thread

Ah, good. I was beginning to feel excluded.

where are the faithful of the Old Testament now?

In Heaven. The Church teaches that the Old Testament righteous were rescued by Christ on the Holy Saturday when He descended into the limbo of the Fathers and liften them to Heaven. This fact is beautifully illustrated by the Orthodox icon which we contemplate every Easter, and that is not frequent enough:

Observe Jesus in glory, Who broke the gates of hell (He is standing on the wreckage, and the hardware of the gate is littered underfoot, cf. Matthew 16:18) lifting Adam and Eve from the Harrows of Hell, with Hebrew righteous watching.

For something more textual, along with the scriptural reference, see

I. LIMBUS PATRUM

Though it can hardly be claimed, on the evidence of extant literature, that a definite and consistent belief in the limbus patrum of Christian tradition was universal among the Jews, it cannot on the other hand be denied that, more especially in the extra-canonical writings of the second or first centuries B.C., some such belief finds repeated expression; and New Testament references to the subject remove all doubt as to the current Jewish belief in the time of Christ. Whatever name may be used in apocryphal Jewish literature to designate the abode of the departed just, the implication generally is

that their condition is one of happiness,
that it is temporary, and
that it is to be replaced by a condition of final and permanent bliss when the Messianic Kingdom is established.

In the New Testament, Christ refers by various names and figures to the place or state which Catholic tradition has agreed to call the limbus patrum. In Matt. 8:11, it is spoken of under the figure of a banquet "with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven" (cf. Luke 8:29; 14:15), and in Matt. 25:10 under the figure of a marriage feast to which the prudent virgins are admitted, while in the parable of Lazarus and Dives it is called "Abraham's bosom" (Luke 16:22) and in Christ's words to the penitent thief on Calvary the name paradise is used (Luke 23:43). St. Paul teaches (Eph. 4:9) that before ascending into Heaven Christ "also descended first into the lower parts of the earth," and St. Peter still more explicitly teaches that "being put to death indeed, in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit," Christ went and "preached to those souls that were in prison, which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noah" (I Pet 3:18-20).

It is principally on the strength of these Scriptural texts, harmonized with the general doctrine of the Fall and Redemption of mankind, that Catholic tradition has defended the existence of the limbus patrum as a temporary state or place of happiness distinct from Purgatory. As a result of the Fall, Heaven was closed against men. Actual possession of the beatific vision was postponed, even for those already purified from sin, until the Redemption should have been historically completed by Christ's visible ascendancy into Heaven. Consequently, the just who had lived under the Old Dispensation, and who, either at death or after a course of purgatorial discipline, had attained the perfect holiness required for entrance into glory, were obliged to await the coming of the Incarnate Son of God and the full accomplishment of His visible earthly mission. Meanwhile they were "in prison," as St. Peter says; but, as Christ's own words to the penitent thief and in the parable of Lazarus clearly imply, their condition was one of happiness, notwithstanding the postponement of the higher bliss to which they looked forward. And this, substantially, is all that Catholic tradition teaches regarding the limbus patrum.
Limbo

are the Holy Scriptures of the Old Testament understood to be Scripture in the same sense and with the same authority as those of the New?

Of course. The Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII I quoted a few posts above never makes the distinction.

The Old Testament

121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value,⁹² for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.
122 Indeed, "the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men."⁹³ "Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional,"⁹⁴ the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God's saving love: these writings "are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way."⁹⁵
123 Christians venerate the Old Testament as true Word of God. The Church has always vigorously opposed the idea of rejecting the Old Testament under the pretext that the New has rendered it void (Marcionism).
ARTICLE 3 SACRED SCRIPTURE

Now, what is usually overlooked by Protestant Judaizers is that the Law of the Old Testament was given the Jews, was fulfilled rather than perpetuated by Jesus, Who repeated and expanded some parts of it, never repeated others, and generally taught critical, based on reason and natural law, treatment of the Hebrew Law (Matthew 5-7). It is not therefore a dismissal of the Old Testament to do what the Church did and realize that the Church should, in due course and acting with the authority of Christ (Matthew 18:18), legislate upon the Old Testament Law and liberate the faithful from it (Acts 15, numerous Church councils afterward, and especially Second Nicene Council that re-established veneration of the Holy Images).