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To: narses
From the article: For years, Americans had chased, robbed, beaten and killed them.

Hmmm, an interesting view of the past. It ignores many facts though. [Narses]

Agreed. In the 14 years prior to this (1833-1847), we're talking about a few years in Nauvoo and Missouri?

Let's look at Missouri: The actual "rough handling" of Mormons only really occurred...
...over a 100-day period in Jackson Co late spring/early Summer...
... + early fall of '33 + another month or so-- maybe 40-45 days in Sept/Oct, 1838 -- with the violence all occurring in Oct., 1838.
If we put those two intense periods together in 1830s Missouri, and it was less than 5 months actual real time, all told.

In the first instance, the "perps" in the first 100 of those days was generated by less than 50 people in 1 county (400-500 did attend a council in mid-July but we have no record of how many in attendence of a mtg acted upon it...showing up at an event doesn't make you an oppressor or persecutor ...and the committee who then attempted to foist themselves upon the Mormons were only 12 men...(per Joseph Fielding Smith, Essentials in [LDS] Church History, p. 133-134). Now, remember, this was out of a state-wide/co-wide pop of how many?

Joseph Fielding Smith also said a mob of 500 (p. 135) existed where no violence was done but threatened it (July 23, 1833). Smith says "about 1200 members forced to leave Jackson co." (p. 209) but the committee which forced them out only specified 11 families according to Smith earlier in the book. [They forced 9 of 11 families to leave within a few mos. warning -- and the two remaining would finish up their business goods (Smith, p. 135)]

So when Lds claim that Mormons were "robbed," I wish they would talk about specifics. Usually, Lds reference only Missouri in the 1830s and Nauvoo in the mid-1840s. In looking at Missouri:

"When again they were forced to leave Clay Co, though they went peaceably at the request of the other citizens, they left behind them a vast amount of property for which no remuneration was ever received. Claims against Missouri for the losses were presented to Congress in the sum of $1,381,044.00 and this represented only 491 individuals...in 1839, the amount of their losses was estimated at two million dollars." (p. 210)

You mean to tell me that many of these poor emigrants averaged possessions worth $2,700 in 1833/1838 dollar values? Really?

We know 11 specific Lds families suffered property losses in Jackson Co. in 1833/early 1834 when they were forced to move (Smith mentions them by name on p. 135 as the ONLY families a committee of 12 Jackson Co. men were forcing to move...but then, suddenly "11" families becomes "about 1200 individuals" on p. 209. Now I don't think even Mormon families back then had over 100 members per family.) Mormons then moved into Clay County in 1834. We know from eyewitnesses that Mormons told the Clay Co. residents that their stay there wouldn't be permanent and so everything was built as a temporary stopgap (Most Lds were there about three years -- 1834 thru 1836...some began exiting to North Ray Co. in Dec, 1836 as part of a new Mormon-designated Co. -- Caldwell Co.)

Beyond that, Bagley the author here seems to follow in the great Mormon tradition of exaggeration. Take again another look at Joseph Fielding Smith's 1950 book, Essentials in Church History (republished 1973).

He starts off chapter 32: "At the beginning of the year 1843, peace reigned in Nauvoo; for a time the Saints remained undisturbed, and the prophet had a breathing spell of freedom." (p. 275)

Now, that's a funny piece of greatly exaggerated writing. Oh, sure, I'm sure Smith was heavily challenged thru 1842 and even beyond that. But this Lds "prophet" was making it sound like the mob was banging down doors in Nauvoo & constantly under sniper fire, when in fact it was Missouri Governor Boggs who was shot and badly wounded by a likely Mormon's assassin bullet in May, 1842.

Now, what's the socio-political proof we have that Smith wasn't in a high state of disturbance -- or as Bagley said, "chased" all over...with lack of a "breathing spell of freedom" in the early 1840s?
#1 Smith was mayor of Nauvoo with tight control of the largely Mormon city & city council
#2 Smith was its militia leader
#3 Smith was beginning to formulate his emboldened idea of running for U.S. President, which he did in 1844.
#4 And here's the "laugher" of them all. JF Smith makes it sound like the Mormon "persecutors" have been in such a frenzy thru 1842 that Smith's been winded from ducking in & out of martyr foxholes. Sorry, Mr. Mormon "prophet" but that may pass the "Let's Recreate Joe Smith in a Hero Image Mold" test but not the straight-face test.

Let's extend our Mormon history test: What, pray tell, was Joe Smith spending a key chunk of 1842 doing? Answer? Why he was courting, marrying, and "attending to" a dozen NEW wives over a 9-month period from December, 1841 thru August, 1842. (And by "thru" I don't mean he suddenly had much additional free time September to Dec 1842 just because he didn't take on any new wives for those 4 months 'cause believe me, if you've had time to build up a 17-wife roster -- including 12 new ones over an 18-month period -- then you hardly feel so insecure. (Otherwise, why would you either want to place new wives in jeopardy of an assassin's bullet or leave them widowed???)

Bottom line: Wow! If Smith could accumulate a dozen new wives over 9 mos. during supposedly Mormon-described hostile, unpeaceful times, just think how many he would have added in a peaceful year...oh, yeah, we have that on record, too -- why he added another 17 new wives during that peaceful 1843 year... what only a 42% increase of new wives when peace broke out???

The only thing I could find "prior" to the Nov. 6, 1838-read extermination order that Lds writers key in on was Smith's arrest & placement in Liberty Jail 3 days prior to that.

Finally, as you said Narses, this piece of writing "ignores many facts":

All kinds of reasons existed in the minds of a great minority of primarily three counties of Missourians as to why they did what they did -- and, BTW, many opposed the Mormons without resorting to violence or vandalism. There's no 19th-century "surveys" to narrow down the reasons -- 'cause I'm sure w/many a combination of reasons accumulated for them to resort to violence & vandalism & eviction.

Some...
...were ungodly and violent;
...didn't like that the Mormons hardly contributed to the local economy as they transacted only with Lds businesses.
...resented potential loss of political control. "And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself" (D&C 105:5, June 1834) Evidence? Testimony from MO Judge Joseph Thorp: Their prophet also induced his followers to believe that he would form a temporal kingdom or government, and they would not be subject to the laws of the State, but should make their own laws, have their own civil officers to execute them, Joseph, the prophet, being dictator, aided by revelation and his cabinet or council; and when their edicts were sent forth they were obeyed without a murmur by his followers. Judge Joseph Thorp, Liberty Tribune, "Early Days in Missouri," October 12, 1883. No. 23.

Some feared a physical takeover. Judge Thorp again: Their audacity and impudence in telling the citizens that it was made known to Joseph, their prophet, priest and king, from high heaven, that Jackson county was theirs -- given to them by the Lord, and it was foolishness in them to resist and fight against God; that the temple was to be built in Independence and that saints were to be gathered from the four quarters of the globe to worship the God of Israel in the New Jerusalem, as it was under the Jewish dispensation. Their idea was, it appears, that they were to establish a spiritual kingdom where the latter day saints were to congregate to worship tho God of Ancient Israel as did their fathers in the days of the prophets; they commenced preparing to build the temple, and, if I recollect, partly dug out the foundation. (same source)

(Judge Thorp also added that Their paper was filled up weekly with revelations, promising great things to the saints who were faithful, and threatening destruction to the citizens if they did not give up their lands and homes peaceably, and leave them in peaceable possession, contending that the Jew and Gentile could not live together in the same locality. Certainly, Smith put these threats into Lds "scripture" by June of 1834 that the ungodly would be hit with vengeance like a whirlwind (v. 22), god-based scourging & vexing (v. 23), the indignation of the lord (v. 24) in D&C 105.

Also, as some have mentioned, many were pro-slavery & identified with Southerners, whereas Lds tended to be Northerners/Easterners & were perceived as being "abolitionist" even though Smith himself uttered a D&C "scripture" where he said the Mormon gospel was off-limits to slaves minus their "master's" consent.

...And then many didn't like Independence becoming the world-wide HQ military takeover Smith was preaching in June 1834: "And after these lands are purchased, I will hold the armies of Israel guiltless in taking possession of their own lands, which they have previously purchased with their own moneys, and of throwing down the towers of mine enemies that may be upon them, and scattering their watchmen, and avenging me of mine enemies unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. But first let my army become very great, and let it be sanctified before me, that it may become fair as the sun, and clear as the moon, and that her banners may be terrible unto all nations; That the kingdoms of this world may be constrained to acknowledge that the kingdom of Zion is in very deed the kingdom of our God and his Christ; therefore, let us become subject unto her laws." (D&C 105: 30-32)

Smith was even proclaiming that all nations would bow down to the Lds church in a new "scripture" established on Aug. 2, 1833: "...if Zion doing these things [build a house of the Mormon god & school + obey commandments] she shall prosper, and spread herself and become very glorious, very great, and very terrible. And the nations of the earth shall honor her, and shall say: Surely Zion is the city of our God, and surely Zion cannot fall, neither be moved out of her place... (97:18-19)

10 posted on 01/24/2010 5:29:31 PM PST by Colofornian (We don't need Soilent Greeners in office!!!)
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To: Colofornian
Back in the 1800's the mormons murdered innocent people traveling through Utah. I think it was 150.

Also, check out this guy, he has a show on in Utah. He's a born again ex-mormon. He talks a lot about the religion, facts and fiction along with documents. It's actually pretty interesting. His name is Shane McCraney and the show is The Heart of the Matter, you can watch it on his website - http://www.hotm.tv/

13 posted on 01/24/2010 5:38:52 PM PST by MsLady (If you died tonight, where would you go? Salvation, don't leave earth without it!)
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