Posted on 01/22/2010 4:09:51 PM PST by Colofornian
SALT LAKE CITY -- Joseph Smith recorded several different accounts of the First Vision. On Jan. 28 Steven C. Harper, an assistant professor of church history at BYU and a volume editor of the Joseph Smith Papers, will use the latest scholarship on memory to analyze these different accounts. Harper's lecture, "Memory and the First Vision," will be 7 p.m. Jan. 28 at the University of Utah campus in the Carolyn Tanner Irish Humanities Building, Room 101.
The Salt Lake Mormon Studies Student Association hosts the event. There is no cost to attend. For information, go to saltlakemormonstudies.wordpress.com.
You got that right. His earliest version (1832) -- written supposedly about a dozen years after he said it occurred -- was written right at a time when...
...Smith's leadership & authority was being challenged [hence it comes across more as an apologetic for why his leadership should be respected...as he re-presents himself image-wise (from $-seeker to spiritual seeker)...and less as an historical account...
...also Smith had written in D&C 84:22 that no man could see the face of God minus the priesthood and live...so how did Smith live if He saw the face of God?
In several of Smith's versions, he only mentions angels. In the 1834-1835 version he told to Cowdery, published in the Messenger & Advocate, he said he was age "17" and desired to know if a Supreme Being existed.
Well, wait a minute, in the rest of the accounts he's either 14, 15, or 16 and had already encountered two unnamed personages that Lds later decide was God the Father and Jesus Christ...even though Christ isn't mentioned in either of the other two 1835 versions!!! So how could he be questioning if God existed at age 17 if he'd already met him a few years earlier?
And why in that Messenger & Advocate account does he say he has "a desire to know for himself of the certainty & reality of pure & holy religion" at age 17 if God & Jesus had already appeared to him? And why no unnamed personages (only angels) in that version?
And how could this desire for certainty/reality of pure & holy religion, along with questioning whether God existed, be the questions he's asking from his bedroom at age 17 when he said in the other versions he wondered these same things at an earlier age in a grove. What? You can't remember what questions were asked where -- and when either angels or two unnamed personages appeared to you?
It’s gonna be fun to see how they try to spin this one. And the TBM’s will swallow anything they say hook, line and sinker.
"The upcoming publication of the BCR will provide scholars with unprecedented access to earlier and unknown revelation texts, a better understanding of the revelatory process, more insight into the revelatory record-keeping practices, and a richer understanding of the changes of the revelation texts," Brother Jensen said.
A clearer understanding of the manuscript, he pointed out, "comes through a proper study of its provenance, history and use, and brings scholars face to face with the seriousness with which Mormons approached their religious texts."
Steven C. Harper, another editor in the Joseph Smith papers, gave specific cases in which, in light of the discovery of the manuscript, the setting and context for several known revelations may need to be revised.
The manuscript "will reaffirm many conclusions and undermine others," he said. "It will answer some heretofore unanswered questions and invite some questions that we have not yet thought to ask."
The manuscript's index of contents and historical head notes "reveal heretofore unknown places, dates, chronologies, intentions, causes and effects, and meanings," he said. "Often they simply reaffirm later sources but in doing so they give us increased confidence in those sources and, in some cases, they inform our interpretations of them. Occasionally the head notes challenge later sources. Always, the head notes help us understand how the earliest Mormons and others related to these revelations."
The manuscript may have the effect, he said, of resolving a controversy that has arisen over whether the Church was organized at Fayette, N.Y., as has traditionally been understood, or at Manchester, N.Y. It does so by affirming that a revelation given on April 6, 1830, was given at Fayette, not at Manchester.
"The 1833 Book of Commandments, heretofore the earliest source available, located this revelation in Manchester," he explained. Some authors thus argued that the traditional story of the Church's founding in Fayette lacked foundation in the historical record, "but we can now see that in this case, tradition and the historical record match up," he said."
So what of the non-Mormon histories that definitely establish the time and era of the "commotions caused by Joe Smith's claims of a vision" that definitively establishes the dates these events occured, and thus Joseph's age? And could Joseph in writing his history much like the Gospel writers chose to emphasize different aspects of the event at differing times to differing audiences---again, just like the 4 Gospel writers did--just like happens in ANY re-telling of ANY history, secular or religious. There is nothing to spin, no weakness in the claims of the LDS Church coming out of this any more than the 4 Gospels being quite different indicate the Bible if a fraud.
The Mormon obsession continues! What gives? Too much time on your hands? Not enough confidence in your own beliefs to allow them to stand independent of having to trash someone else's? Sheesh, get a hobby. (As usual, I won't be reading or responding to any reply because responding as much as I do to rank bigotry is enough of a waste of my time as it is.)
Another noob comes along to accuse Freepers of bigotry..... And flat out says she’s a hit a run poster.
Yawn....what else is new.
Paul to the Galatians: If an angel or another man gives you a different gospel, do not believe him.
Then most likely high-five their buddies on their triumph.
As you say, Ho..Humm..!
Bumps the thread in the meantime. ;)
Wrong. There are no contradictions. The gospels are written from the perspective of each of the author. Just because they all do not say the same thing doesn’t mean they are wrong. It means they provide a different aspect of Jesus. For example, Matthew wrote specifically for the Jews, so that they would understand how Jesus fulfilled scripture.
Most of the conflicts in the NT can be accounted for.
For instance, several atheists have confronted me with the death of Judas - but a body can be both hung and fall and burst. There are other parts, I don’t have problems with this. After years of study of the bible I am still amazed at how all things mesh in so many ways. And the fulfilled prophecy in it! Sometimes after I’ve studied, I lie awake in bed filled with wonder at this incredible book.
However, Mormonism has a lots of conflicts with traditional Christianity and Judaism that really can’t be reconciled with traditional Christian doctrine. In essentials of Christian dogma, it’s just off - not compatible with the whole of the gospel and OT- but of course I guess that’s why Smith figured he needed to found an entire new faith.
However, I never knock anyone’s faith - unless, of course, they come to my door - that to me is an open invite!
And yet you read the initial post and respond anyways...
Hum...
4 different authors. (You're not claiming Smith was a "quad" personality, R U?)
I think it very telling that Mormons often resort to denigrating the Bible in order to build up their fairy tales.
I thought they believed in the Bible, um... I guess not really. It is only to be used as a tool to show how superior Joe Smyth is to the original apostles and writers of the Bible.
It’s so sad, really....sad.
Err... the Gospels are 4 (very similar) testimonies from 4 different people, while the first vision accounts are 6 (or 9) different testimonies from the SAME guy!
There are no 'different' or 'oopsie' Gospels from Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. The Gospel of Thomas preached a different Christ, and is not part of the Bible - like the Book of Mormon!
“Rank bigotry”???
Like the rankest kind of anti-Catholic bigotry that drips from the Doctrine & Covenants, your many “Apostles”, and Merry Smithmas himself when they refer to the “Great and Abominable Church’?
And don’t try to deny that’s a slander against the Church of Rome (to which I belong), since those same sources condemn Protestant denominations as the “lewd daughters” of the “Great and Abominable Church”.
You Smitholaters really slay me!
“Calling star Kolob...calling star Kolob......”
;^)
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John’s accounts are not all the same but that’s beside the point. We Mormons do not have to “spin” anything.
When Joseph Smith was 14 years old he saw a glorious vision of the Father and the Son. It’s OK that you don’t believe it. But I do and my opinion is just as good as yours.
I think the part about the gripping evil spirit BEFORE the Vision of the Father and the Son is very telling. If a person were going to make up such a story, they’d have left that part out.
I love my Church. I love the memory of Joseph Smith for his courage in the face of such horrible opposition. A lesser man would have bolted. And so it is even to this day. You know his name for evil; I know his name for good - just as he predicted.
Joseph Smith ushered in the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ and there are over 13 million of us who believe it with all our hearts.
I have seen miracles. I have experienced miracles. The Priesthood is real. The Church is true. It is Heavenly Father’s Plan of Salvation. Jesus is our Savior. The Holy Ghost seals it in my heart. Amen.
“Mormons often resort to denigrating the Bible in order to build up their fairy tales”
I love the Bible. It is God’s Word. Some people believe the Bible is full of “fairy tales” and that hurts my soul and I feel sorry for them.
The Book of Mormon is another Testament of Jesus Christ. When I read the Bible, I feel the Holy Ghost. When I read the Book of Mormon, I feel the Holy Ghost.
I love the Savior. He died for me, too.
Ahh, an outlet for their changing of history. Figures.
LOL...
Most excellent.
Saundra,
I believe you gave your life to Christ many years ago. I hope you always remember that he died to save you, to show His complete love for you, and that you can add nothing to His gift. There is nothing higher than His gift to you.
I pray that you remember the omnipotent God, who is the all, the one and only, who has no equal in all the universe, and know that He created you.
I pray that you always remember and realize that human effort at making themselves good, is puny and self-absorbed, especially when it gives them pride and self-importance and places themselves as savior of themselves.
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