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To: 13Sisters76
It is benevolence, for sure, that caused Him to give us the absolute right to make the choice.

Thus it was God's plan that such suffering, even of innocents, would occur. If he is omniscient and eternal then he knew from the beginning every instance of suffering his plan would cause. All of that in order to let us choose, well, most of us -- the innocent victim of the earthquake didn't make any choices leading to his suffering. True, whether or not choice is worth it is a judgment call, purely subjective.

Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem, entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily, Occam's Razor.

On one hand, we require explaining, apologetics, extensive logical exercises to reconcile the bad in the world with God's stated attributes of absolute benevolence, power and knowledge. Probably billions of words have been written and spoken in order to reconcile this, up to and including your last post (and probably thousands more around the world since then).

On the other hand we have the premise that nature (or God, if you wish) is indifferent. No explaining, no apologetics, no logical exercises required. It's simple, it is straightforward, it fully explains everything, so it is more likely true.

Yes, I tend to operate on logic and reason, not much on faith. It works well for me. If you take the Martin Luther approach that faith must "trample under foot all reason" to whatever lesser or greater extent, fine, if it works well for you. Yes, my quoting of Martin Luther is perfectly within context.

32 posted on 01/18/2010 10:07:43 PM PST by antiRepublicrat
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To: antiRepublicrat

It seems we have a “circular argument”, to be sure. I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe and neither of us will be convinced- right? You must see in order to know (you must be fun in discussions about gravity!). I have found that trying to describe a personal relationship with the Creator of the universe is a bit like trying to describe an orgasm to one who has never experienced it.

We CHOSE the pain, loss and, yes, earthquakes we experience in this life. I suspect that had the forebears known what went along with “being as gods”, they might not have been seduced by the enemy. There has to be a certain amount of security in allowing God to make all the decisions and choosing all the (unpainful) exigencies that we might have experienced. However, our pride (a singular human failing) would never have allowed it, and, I re-submit, most of humanity would make the same choice NOW. Would you prefer that God had struck Adam and Eve with lightning to keep them in the garden? He gave us free will- and we used it.

I’m sure that attributing our fate to “chance” has its appeal for some. The unsatisfying lack of explanation of nature and its laws leaves some of us decidedly more skeptical of atheism than others. I am a skeptic.

You seem like a smart guy (girl?) and I am sure you have given your atheism LOTS of thought. I am an old lady and have given my faith lots of attention. I collect degrees as a hobby, now (goes with being retired and having time on my hands!) and I find that the more I learn, the less I know. I do know this- there is something bigger and greater than us. I have chosen to believe in God and have no regrets.

BTW- I’m sure you used the Latin to impress and it worked! I am dang shure IM-pressed. Yoo sho’ gots yoo sum larn’in!


34 posted on 01/19/2010 9:34:12 PM PST by 13Sisters76 ("It is amazing how many people mistake a certain hip snideness for sophistication. " Thos. Sowell)
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