Passions over 'prosperity gospel': Was Jesus wealthy? (*BARF ALERT*)

Each Christmas, Christians tell stories about the poor baby Jesus born in a lowly manger because there was no room in the inn.

But the Rev. C. Thomas Anderson, senior pastor of the Living Word Bible Church in Mesa, Arizona, preaches a version of the Christmas story that says baby Jesus wasn't so poor after all.

Anderson says Jesus couldn't have been poor because he received lucrative gifts -- gold, frankincense and myrrh -- at birth. Jesus had to be wealthy because the Roman soldiers who crucified him gambled for his expensive undergarments. Even Jesus' parents, Mary and Joseph, lived and traveled in style, he says.

"Mary and Joseph took a Cadillac to get to Bethlehem because the finest transportation of their day was a donkey," says Anderson. "Poor people ate their donkey. Only the wealthy used it as transportation."

Many Christians see Jesus as the poor, itinerant preacher who had "no place to lay his head." But as Christians gather around the globe this year to celebrate the birth of Jesus, another group of Christians are insisting that Jesus' beginnings weren't so humble.

They say that Jesus was never poor -- and neither should his followers be. Their claim is embedded in the doctrine known as the prosperity gospel, which holds that God rewards the faithful with financial prosperity and spiritual gifts.

The prosperity gospel has attracted plenty of critics. But popular televangelists such as the late Oral Roberts, Kenneth Hagin and, today, Creflo Dollar have built megachurches and a global audience by equating piety with prosperity.

When were the tin mines opened and who operated them?

Perhaps as early as the third millenium BC and in Joseph's time, it would have been descendants of whoever it was the Phoenicians took over there. Given the closeness of Cyrus to Solomon in earlier times, there would have been a lot of Jewish miners.

Surely you are not postulating that the lost sheep of Israel were in Britain?

There were Jews operating the mines...the Jews operating the mines weren't the lost sheep.

How many gentiles were in a crowd of Jews in Judea?

A lot I'm sure. Ever see any foreigners in New York?

When were the tin mines opened and who operated them? Perhaps as early as the third millenium BC and in Joseph's time, it would have been descendants of whoever it was the Phoenicians took over there.

Whoever said that the Pheonicians made it to Britain? Perhaps as early as the third millenium BC does not mean definitely and we still have no evidence of JofA making it to Britain.

Surely you are not postulating that the lost sheep of Israel were in Britain?

There were Jews operating the mines...the Jews operating the mines weren't the lost sheep.

The Pheonicians were not Jews. There weren't Jews there. The weather sucked, for one thing.

How many gentiles were in a crowd of Jews in Judea?

A lot I'm sure. Ever see any foreigners in New York?

The Jews ran everybody out except for the invading force of Romans. There weren't a whole lot of non Jews there. The ones that were, were noteworthy in Scripture.

Whoever said that the Pheonicians made it to Britain?

Even your friends aren't denying that.

Perhaps as early as the third millenium BC does not mean definitely and we still have no evidence of JofA making it to Britain.

Manuscripts, artifacts, etc.

The Phoenicians were not Jews. There weren't Jews there.

The Phoenicians and the Jews had a close relationship going back to Solomon.

The Jews ran everybody out except for the invading force of Romans. There weren't a whole lot of non Jews there. The ones that were, were noteworthy in Scripture.

OK, speaking of Romans...how did they clear the crowd of the Romans? When Jesus was on the cross He converted one gentile Roman soldier right there after he heard Jesus teach Psalm22.

Jewish Talmud, papal Councils.

So quote the specific passages from those, until then it is all hearsay. And neither PROVES JoA mythology

"One" of the first stops if you would look closer.

Paul didn't make Rome his first stop, it was his last, but then don't let facts confuse you.

You don't believe people can be touched by the Holy Spirit?

Never said that, don't try mind reading.

A non-answer.

In contrast to your 'answers', I provided details earlier and see no need to repeat myself.

Jesus said the children of Israel didn't have to pay the tax He was talking about. It was a stranger's tax. He was considered a stranger in Capernaum. You take off for 18 years and everyone thinks you're a stranger.

Jesus grew up in Nazareth, not Capernaum. The tax is the temple tax as explained earlier. oi ta didracma lambanontev - a voluntary tax collected only from the israelites for the maintenance of the temple. This tax for the Jerusalem temple was due in the month Adar (our March) and it was now nearly six months overdue. But Jesus and the Twelve had been out of Galilee most of this time. Hence the question of the tax-collectors. Perhaps you need to refresh your memory of what the OT has to say too.

Names and dates please.

Only after you have provided ample citations to permit adequate evaluations of your source materials - requested time and again. You'll probably find them with your Tertullian citations

So quote the specific passages from those, until then it is all hearsay. And neither PROVES JoA mythology

So you want me to research the Talmud, find the exact place where it says Joseph is Mary's uncle, and when I show you where that is you say it doesn't matter anyway. No thanks.

Paul didn't make Rome his first stop, it was his last, but then don't let facts confuse you.

It's one of the first stops in the world. lol

Never said that, don't try mind reading.

It was a question.

In contrast to your 'answers', I provided details earlier and see no need to repeat myself.

Were they from before the middle ages?

Jesus grew up in Nazareth, not Capernaum.

Matt 4:13, He dwelt there.

The tax is the temple tax as explained earlier. oi ta didracma lambanontev - a voluntary tax collected only from the israelites for the maintenance of the temple. This tax for the Jerusalem temple was due in the month Adar (our March) and it was now nearly six months overdue. But Jesus and the Twelve had been out of Galilee most of this time. Hence the question of the tax-collectors. Perhaps you need to refresh your memory of what the OT has to say too.

Jesus was the only one asked for it.

Only after you have provided ample citations to permit adequate evaluations of your source materials - requested time and again. You'll probably find them with your Tertullian citations

You said it doesn't matter. Why go through the trouble?

The first century goes from 1 to 100. Joseph returned in 37. 37 comes before 47.

Based upon a myth fashioned 1000 years later. Tsk, tsk argument by repetition, how droll

The bible says the people were astonished at Jesus' answers. You don't believe Jesus learned everything He knew from the rabbis at the temple do you?

Now you are even stretching further - Jesus to england BEFORE his father's death. LOL Druids teaching the scriptures to Jesus. Should add a tinfoil alert to the barf alert.

You first...dates and names please.

Yours are arguments are "petitio principii" and false attribution. I leave you with your fancy fairy tail

Based upon a myth fashioned 1000 years later. Tsk, tsk argument by repetition, how droll

When do your sources date from?

Now you are even stretching further - Jesus to england BEFORE his father's death. LOL Druids teaching the scriptures to Jesus. Should add a tinfoil alert to the barf alert.

The subject was Jesus at 12 and the rabbis in the temple. You said Jesus was just asking questions. The bible teaches that the people were astonished at Jesus' answers proving that at the age of 12, when Jesus Mary and Joseph and others of the family went to Jerusalem, that Jesus was teaching at the temple, disproving all your claims made that He never taught before the age of 30. An interesting thing is that Joseph of Arimathea lived 8 miles north of Jerusalem. That explains how Joseph and Mary lost Jesus, He went into Jerusalem with family members, probably Joseph of Arimathea.

Yours are arguments are "petitio principii" and false attribution. I leave you with your fancy fairy tail

Bottom line is there is no evidence Jesus spent much time in Judaea between the ages of 12 and 30.

So you want me to research the Talmud, find the exact place where it says Joseph is Mary's uncle, and when I show you where that is you say it doesn't matter anyway. No thanks.

You have made the claim, back it up.

It's one of the first stops in the world. lol

Paul's first missions trip Acts 13:4-14:28

Paul' second trips Acts 15:40-18:23a

Paul' third trips Acts 18:23b-20:3a

Paul' s journey under arrest Acts 27:12 - 28:31 Paul's last destination, not first.

Matt 4:13, He dwelt there.

There are good bible sites available on the web if you don't have one. Should have checked it first -

Matt 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
13* And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:

He didn't depart from Nazareth UNTIL he recieved news of John the Baptist's death.

Jesus was the only one asked for it.

No the question was directed to Peter, not Jesus, explained the details upthread.

You said it doesn't matter. Why go through the trouble?

Only if to have additional laughs at the gullibility of some individuals. But then if you can't pony up. . . . . .

You said Jesus was just asking questions.

If you are going to cite my statements, please do so with accuracy. I said Q and A - you do understand what Q and A means don't you?

Mary and Joseph and others of the family went to Jerusalem, that Jesus was teaching at the temple, disproving all your claims made that He never taught before the age of 30.

You really should get a bible and use it. Luke 2:46* And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
47* And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

Where, please is Jesus TEACHING at the temple. As I said - Q and A.

Bottom line is there is no evidence Jesus spent much time in Judaea between the ages of 12 and 30.

All credible evidence evidence indicates that is exactly what he did. Occams razor.

You have made the claim, back it up.

Why? It doesn't matter anyway. You said so.

Paul' s journey under arrest Acts 27:12 - 28:31 Paul's last destination, not first.

It's certainly one of the first in the world.

There are good bible sites available on the web if you don't have one. Should have checked it first - Matt 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee; 13* And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim: He didn't depart from Nazareth UNTIL he recieved news of John the Baptist's death.

Then why did He say He he wasn't liable for the tax? He had the fish get the coin so as to not offend the tax collector. The coin never passed from Jesus' hand to the tax collector.

No the question was directed to Peter, not Jesus, explained the details upthread.

Yes, but the tax was asked of Jesus.

Only if to have additional laughs at the gullibility of some individuals. But then if you can't pony up. . .

I'm not spending hours doing reasearch and just have you say they're liars and forgers. I'll show in the bible and that's it. Anything else you can find on your own. I don't care if you believe me on the historical stuff. You've made some outrageous claims to support your theory so it's gone beyond the realm of intelligent conversation. You say that Jesus never taught before the age of 30...proven false with Jesus at 12 in the temple with the rabbis. You say that Jesus spent 18 years learning carpentry to the point where He had no time to teach. You say no one could teach before the age of 30 according to Jewish law, and that's ridiculous because that would mean that even conversations about spiritualty were banned.

Where's one shred of evidence that Jesus spent a majority of His time in Judaea between the ages of 12 and 30?

If you are going to cite my statements, please do so with accuracy. I said Q and A - you do understand what Q and A means don't you? You really should get a bible and use it. Luke 2:46* And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. 47* And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. Where, please is Jesus TEACHING at the temple. As I said - Q and A.

How could He be giving answers and not be teaching?

All credible evidence evidence indicates that is exactly what he did. Occams razor.

Occams Razor is not evidence. lol

Why? It doesn't matter anyway. You said so.

OK, so go away or I will taunt you again.

It's certainly one of the first in the world.

The skys green you say.

Then why did He say He he wasn't liable for the tax? He had the fish get the coin so as to not offend the tax collector. The coin never passed from Jesus' hand to the tax collector.

You really should read the posts, and cite the correct one. Jesus is speaking in a parable in vs 25 & 26.

I'm not spending hours doing reasearch and just have you say they're liars and forgers.

By all of your "claimed" evidence - you've produced not an iota. Its clear you've spent no time researching your own sacred cow.

I'll show in the bible and that's it.

You haven't been able to do even that very well either.

You've made some outrageous claims to support your theory so it's gone beyond the realm of intelligent conversation.

Ah, projecting. Sorry, I'm not the one who believes that JoA brought the Holy Grail with him to england and convorted with King Arthur, that falls in your court.

You say that Jesus spent 18 years learning carpentry to the point where He had no time to teach.

Go and study Jewish family life in the 1st century and come back and say this again.

You say no one could teach before the age of 30 according to Jewish law, and that's ridiculous because that would mean that even conversations about spiritualty were banned.

This just goes to show an inability to research Judaism of the period.

Where's one shred of evidence that Jesus spent a majority of His time in Judaea between the ages of 12 and 30?

A lot more than what you have and regard as 'evidence' :)

You really should read the posts, and cite the correct one. Jesus is speaking in a parable in vs 25 & 26.

Yes it was a parable but then He said He would pay the tax to not offend the collector. That was the only reason to pay the tax.

By all of your "claimed" evidence - you've produced not an iota. Its clear you've spent no time researching your own sacred cow.

Oh I've researched it for sure. That you can't appreciate what I've been telling you is what keeps me from doing anything for you.

You haven't been able to do even that very well either.

Not if everything is meaningless to you. Nathanael, strangers tax, Jesus at 12 in the temple, Joseph claiming the body as a relative, Mary and Joseph losing Jesus.

Ah, projecting. Sorry, I'm not the one who believes that JoA brought the Holy Grail with him to england and convorted with King Arthur, that falls in your court.

I've never mentioned any of those things.

Go and study Jewish family life in the 1st century and come back and say this again.

Carpentry is really difficult I guess. LOL

This just goes to show an inability to research Judaism of the period.

Can a person teach before 30? You said they couldn't.

A lot more than what you have and regard as 'evidence' :)

One shred. Show me.

Yes it was a parable but then He said He would pay the tax to not offend the collector. That was the only reason to pay the tax.

Not at all it was to avoid a stumbling-block to the priests, or rulers of the Jews - had nothing to do with the collector. He does not wish to create the impression that he and the disciples despise the temple and its worship.

Oh I've researched it for sure. That you can't appreciate what I've been telling you is what keeps me from doing anything for you.

Research that shows no evidence of being researched. I appreciate it, its been loads of laughs.

I've never mentioned any of those things.

Those are the source myths JoA coming to England is associated with. Those are some of your base "evidence" documents.

Carpentry is really difficult I guess. LOL

Who said he spent the time ONLY learning (oh that was you), he spent the rest of the time actually doing the work. Not a hard concept to grasp

Can a person teach before 30? You said they couldn't.

Again, study the jewish life of the period, you've been given this answer already.

One shred. Show me.

You are the one pushing the theory, the burden is upon you :)

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