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To: marshmallow; markomalley
> So you're open to the possibility of becoming a JW?

No, I've been down that path many years ago when I dated a JW, and rejected it outright for reasons of doctrine. Perhaps I misunderstood you: I intend to visit with the groups at St Matthews (including the LGBT group) as meeting community social support groups is a part of my brief as a Guardian Angel.

> (FWIW, rejection of the divinity of Christ is a serious and insurmountable obstacle to the claim of Christian, in my opinion. If Christ is not God, then essential elements of the redemptive mission of Jesus are lost).

There are many, many Christians who would agree with you — primarily they would be Trinitarians (the majority of Christianity). However, it is not necessary to be Trinitarian to be Christian. For some folk, though, it helps to be.

> Do you know what syncretism is? It is the attempt to reconcile all types of religious belief and it was specifically condemned by Pope Pius XI in 1928.

Which is of vital importance to Catholics, but of no importance to anybody else. I am considering Catholicism, and I was studying it (need to get back to that) but as of this moment I am not a Catholic and, while the views of the Popes are interesting, they aren't a conclusive argument with me yet. That said, I tend to agree: not all beliefs can be reconciled.

(I'm also a Freemason, which may prove problematic to the Catholic Church. Obviously plenty to think about.)

> NZ is a country of compromise. The ultimate evil in NZ is to condemn something as evil. There is no black and white, just different shades of gray. It's a utilitarian, go-along-to-get-along, sort of a place. An ersatz, homogeneous society where standing out in a crowd is frowned upon and people are paralyzed by the fear of being different. Being a "good bloke" (as secular society defines it) is the limit of peoples' ambitions.

That, in a nutshell, defines New Zealand rather well and quite accurately. Aspects of that are changing, but it is slow.

Your assessment of the Catholic Church here is right in many areas: it does pay to shop around, as markomalley suggested to me, to find a Catholic Church where doctrine matters.

> In the midst of this we have liberal, goofy theology being preached at places like St. Matthew's. It's a part of the problem. If you're looking to places like this to solve the problem, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed.

I have done a fair bit of work with these people as a Guardian Angel, mostly providing Patrol services for their Christian Youth events. They aren't aligned with any particular church, but they are aligned with the Maori Party and the Harawira family. I think their ministry to Maori and Polynesian youth is excellent: Ezekiel 33 Trust

110 posted on 12/16/2009 12:19:42 PM PST by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghéill mi do dhuine. Fàg am bealach.)
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To: DieHard the Hunter; marshmallow
However, it is not necessary to be Trinitarian to be Christian.

One might call himself a Christian while maintaining a non-Trinitarian stance, but it is utterly impossible to be a Christian unless you can, in one form or another, be able to affirm the following:

We believe in one God the Father all-powerful, maker of heaven and of earth, and of all things both seen and unseen. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten from the Father before all the ages, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father, through whom all things came to be; for us humans and for our salvation he came down from the heavens and became incarnate from the holy Spirit and the virgin Mary, became human and was crucified on our behalf under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried and rose up on the third day in accordance with the scriptures; and he went up into the heavens and is seated at the Father's right hand; he is coming again with glory to judge the living and the dead; his kingdom will have no end. And in the Spirit, the holy, the lordly and life-giving one, proceeding forth from the Father, co-worshipped and co-glorified with Father and Son, the one who spoke through the prophets; in one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. We confess one baptism for the forgiving of sins. We look forward to a resurrection of the dead and life in the age to come. Amen.

Canon 1 of the second Ecumenical council states: The profession of faith of the holy fathers who gathered in Nicaea in Bithynia is not to be abrogated, but it is to remain in force. Every heresy is to be anathematised and in particular that of the Eunomians or Anomoeans, that of the Arians or Eudoxians, that of the Semi-Arians or Pneumatomachi, that of the Sabellians that of the Marcellians, that of the Photinians and that of the Apollinarians.

The above is not optional (although translations will vary, of course). It is also not exclusively a "Catholic" thing (as far as the Church in communion with the See of Peter), it is not exclusively an Orthodox thing, to my knowledge, with the exception of some new ecclesial communities that have come up in the past century or two (such as the Mormons, oneness Pentecostals, and JWs), this is something that is accepted universally.

114 posted on 12/16/2009 12:33:13 PM PST by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: DieHard the Hunter
Your assessment of the Catholic Church here is right in many areas: it does pay to shop around, as markomalley suggested to me, to find a Catholic Church where doctrine matters.

They're few and far between in NZ, sadly. In Auckland, the clergy, almost without exception, are a bland group of nobodies whose homilies are either anecdotes or "can't we all just get along" type stuff. It's awful. I can't bear to go in St. Patrick's Cathedral anymore. It used to be a beautiful church and they gutted it. All in the name of bringing it up to date.

The only bright light I see is that there seems to have been a minor influx of Asian priests due to the priest shortage and they are more spiritual and orthodox men. Have you had a look at Te Atatu? I think that there are elements of traditional Catholic spirituality there for sure.

I grew up in the opulent splendor of South Auckland.........Otahuhu, Mangere East........so I know exactly what it's like and what you're dealing with. Back in the day, they were solid working class areas. Not rich but self-respecting and hard working. Now they're little more than crime-infested ghettos.

115 posted on 12/16/2009 12:33:53 PM PST by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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