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To: Heliand
I apologize for not responding sooner, but I think this really requires a response.

However even beyond that, living in a society with any government at all necessarily entails some surrender of natural rights to the collective.

A natural right cannot be abrogated. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

Please read Thomas Hobbes, John Locke, Thomas Payne, etc. Certain rights are unalienable, meaning they cannot be taken by any society, vote, dictator, etc. They are inherently present for each individual because they are an individual.

If all just governing power derives from the collective body of the people and their natural rights, then the people have the right to determine how much power that shall be and how it shall interface with those rights retained by the people individually. Without the ability to surrender some natural rights into government power, we could not have eminent domain laws, bankruptcy courts, an Army and Navy, etc.

We can only surrender individual rights as individuals. The "collective," as you put it, does not have the legitimate power to do so. I could go on and on discussing this, but I suggest you start by reading Thomas Hobbes, John Locke and Thomas Payne.

48 posted on 12/16/2009 12:20:38 PM PST by cizinec
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To: cizinec
We can only surrender individual rights as individuals. The "collective," as you put it, does not have the legitimate power to do so.

Individual Americans did not vote for the Constitution. Is it therefore illegitimate? How did it end up conferring various powers upon the US Government that are obviously rights that would otherwise belong to individuals (self defense, right of security in property, etc.)

49 posted on 12/16/2009 12:59:23 PM PST by Heliand
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To: cizinec
A natural right cannot be abrogated. ... unalienable Rights...

You are being overly exact here. If the rights are unalienable in the sense you seem to be giving them, there could not be a legitimate death penalty (violates the right to life), there could not be prisons or a military draft (violates the right to liberty and freedom of action), and there could not be eminent domain and taxation (violates the right to securty in holding of property).

Certain rights are unalienable, meaning they cannot be taken by any society, vote, dictator, etc. They are inherently present for each individual because they are an individual.

Doesn't a jury vote to take aaway a man's right to life by giving him the death penalty? Doesn't Congress vote to take a man's property when they condemn it for a military base?

50 posted on 12/16/2009 1:02:34 PM PST by Heliand
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