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To: papertyger

“Born again” is a metaphor. You are not expected to physically be born again.

“Eat my flesh” is a metaphor. You are not expected to physically eat his flesh.

“Hunger and thirst” are metaphors for desiring God.

After all, the entire passage in John 6 starts “26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves [feeding of the 5000] and were filled. 27 Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

In 1 Corinthians, Paul discusses the Eucharist in conjunction with eating food sacrificed to idols.

“15I speak as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. 18Consider the people of Israel: are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar? 19What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.”

One the one hand, he says food sacrificed to idols isn’t really significant, in itself - see verse 19-20, also 27. However, those who eat it identify themselves with idolatry, which is to identify themselves with demons.

I don’t see any sign that Paul believed in ‘real presence’ for demons - he specifically denies it. For Paul, it is identifying oneself, before God and man, with either the idol or Christ.

It is a public proclamation of who you follow...”For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.”

I’ll admit, I’m bewildered that it is even possible to have a conversation like this with an adult. If you read the scripture for teaching, it is plain. If Columbus held up an apple and said, “This is the earth, we will sail around it”, would anyone think Columbus meant the earth was really present in the apple?


43 posted on 12/11/2009 4:54:51 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers
I don’t see any sign that Paul believed in ‘real presence’ for demons - he specifically denies it. For Paul, it is identifying oneself, before God and man, with either the idol or Christ.

I think there are two issues that need to be addressed here with you.

First, That Paul puts no stock in the 'real presence' for one does not preclude his belief in same fore the other. Indeed, I find it strange you seem to look past Paul's comment about participating in the body and blood without any recognition those words have meaning.

Next, many non-Catholics don't seem to be able to break out (in the intellectual sense) of the fact Catholics do not accept the scriptures as the sole source of special revelation.

The doctrine of the Real Presence, like the doctrine of the Trinity, does not rest on scripture, but on Sacred Tradition, and is equally inscrutable. So while no one is denying our Lord's use of metaphors, one of the tasks of the Church is to identify and clarify those things in scripture which can be twisted to destruction.

55 posted on 12/11/2009 6:01:27 PM PST by papertyger (Representation without taxation is tyranny!)
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