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To: wmfights; BelegStrongbow
In passing, it was two ecumenical councils, Ephesus and Chalcedon, both in the 5th century that, as a matter of Christology, said that it was appropriate to call Mary "theotokos." The debate was about the incarnation. The conclusion was that Jesus was true God and true Man. Yes, Marian things follow from that, but the question was and is "what is the Christ?" Similarly The Annunciation is not a Marian feast but a Dominical (of the Lord) feast of the incarnation.

This actually has moral consequences: if the child in Mary's womb is not fully what He was at His birth, then a fetus might not be fully what it is at birth. And so we find ourselves right next door to a pro-abortion position.

Also, she is supposed to be able to hear millions of prayers simultaneously and discern which are worthy of special attention. That to me is unremarkable.

And the interesting aspect, to me, of the disagreement over that ability is its reflection of a difference over what God is and what Heaven is like, specifically as regards time.

And that turns out to be about the role and nature of reason and especially the degree to which reason is corrupted by the Fall.

If reason is utterly unreliable, then we are in a position similar to that held by "orthodox" Muslims with respect both to God and to the Koran.

(This is not a disparaging comment, but a taxonomic one. If I am wrong in my attempt to characterize your view, puhLEEZE don't hesitate to tell me. I spend a lot of time being wrong -- ask my wife.)

That is, we cannot hope to have even the least understanding of God's will and it's goodness, so that (a)He could command us to hate him, and (b) if He did, it would be right to do so.

Similarly, we can never hope to understand the Bible. Our role is to say, "Yessir!" without comprehension.

We think that just as sexual intercourse can be sanctified in a Christian Marriage but can be fertile even if illicit, so reason can HELP us to the truth when it is informed by grace, and even not so informed can lead us to SOME partial (even dangerously partial) truth when it is used in the arguments of the unregenerate.

ANYWAY, Whitehead to the contrary notwithstanding, we find that God, when contemplated by reason alone, is found to be outside of time or timeless, while comprehending time.

Therefore, to be glib, Mary (and all the blessed) have "all the time in the world" to hear, sort, and process petitions. I'm pinging Beleg Strongbow because he is NOT in communion with the Holy See (I think) but still is aware of the scholastic way of thinking. Beleg: this ain't a fight, it's a conversation, a "frank exchange of views," and for that reason quite enjoyable and useful

712 posted on 12/10/2009 8:46:10 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg; BelegStrongbow
In passing, it was two ecumenical councils, Ephesus and Chalcedon, both in the 5th century that, as a matter of Christology, said that it was appropriate to call Mary "theotokos."

I am aware of this, whether It was a group of theologians paid to meet by the emperor, or a group of theologians meeting in a church really doesn't matter. The point being when doctrine "develops" over time it changes and is influenced by the political and social pressures of the day. Mary is only one example within your church. In the Anglican church it is homosexual bishops and same sex marriage. In both cases it is outside Scripture. Why would yours be correct and not theirs?

As to the term Theotokos vs Christokos the latter is probably more apt, but Nestorius had alienated so many the former was adopted. The term Theotokos is less appropriate because it implies that Mary was the Mother of the preincarnate God. She wasn't. The preincarnate God was begotten from the Father and preexisted creation. IOW, the Son of God preexisted Mary not vice versa.

If reason is utterly unreliable, then we are in a position similar to that held by "orthodox" Muslims with respect both to God and to the Koran.

This would be projection. Christians that hold to Scripture as the rule of faith are not supposed to check their brains at the door. What we do though is look at any doctrine through the lens of Scripture. If you can't find it, as is the case with the majority of your church's Marian beliefs, we ignore it.

I would submit to you that your church's Marian doctrines/dogmas have caused your church to miss some fundamental truths. For example, Jesus was born in a stable and laid down in a manger. Because of "developing" doctrine the RCC says Mary was born without sin. The reasoning is along the lines that God can't come into the world through a sin filled vessel. However, you don't see where He was born. A stable is filthy. It's where animals go to the bathroom, it smells and all kinds of vermin live there. A stable is not all that different then our hearts that God indwells when we become Christians. Your "developing" doctrine loses sight of this simple truth in it's attempt to counter greco-roman paganism.

718 posted on 12/10/2009 9:41:11 AM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: Mad Dawg

ping for later response: I’m nowhere near my resources at the moment and this appears to require a documented response from classical and Scholastic sources.


723 posted on 12/10/2009 10:23:32 AM PST by BelegStrongbow (I'm still waiting for Dear Leader to say something that isn't a lie)
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To: Mad Dawg
That to me is unremarkable.

I would think it would be remarkable even to someone who believed it's true...

And that turns out to be about the role and nature of reason and especially the degree to which reason is corrupted by the Fall.

I don't think I'd blame it on the Fall...Adam and Eve were obviously very deficient in their reasoning before the Fall...You can't trust your own reasoning when it comes to the word of God...

Similarly, we can never hope to understand the Bible. Our role is to say, "Yessir!" without comprehension.

That's a pretty narrow view...Jesus says He brings understanding to those who are in Him...

ANYWAY, Whitehead to the contrary notwithstanding, we find that God, when contemplated by reason alone, is found to be outside of time or timeless, while comprehending time.

Why would a justified, sanctified Christian try to contemplate God based on his own reasoning when the scriptures that reveal God to us are readily available???

Therefore, to be glib, Mary (and all the blessed) have "all the time in the world" to hear, sort, and process petitions.

Under that premise when the final judgment takes place, Mary and the saints will be so far behind that those at the end of the line are out of luck...Their prayers will have never made it to God...

745 posted on 12/10/2009 5:50:06 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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