Nice post, but it made me think (although not exactly on topic)...
A Catholic has many things they feel compelled to do, that seem to be tied to their relationship with God and their salvation. Church attendance, confession, baptism, communion are all very important. I don’t presume that a Catholic who fails to meet those obligations would be at risk for eternal damnation, I suppose a learned Catholic here could enlighten me on that point.
But here are us protestants, living what appears to be a much less ordered life, a much less restrictive life. We never see the inside of a confessional, we never take what the Catholics would see as a true communion, we do not worship in the appropriate ways, times, and places.
But we still are allowed the possibility of heaven. Is there anything we lose in eternity because of our choice of denomination, from a Catholic perspective? Does the choice matter? Should our Catholic brethren be working harder to bring us back to the fold, so we get all the blessings available in Heaven for us, or is that not an issue?
>>Should our Catholic brethren be working harder to bring us back to the fold, so we get all the blessings available in Heaven for us, or is that not an issue?<<
We are not required to evangelize to you.
We don’t count the number of souls we bring to the Catholic Church because we believe that if you have a good relationship with Christ, you can make it to heaven.
We will tell you if you ask (it’s not a secret club). However, I know that many non-Catholics don’t believe it but Catholics were targeted for a time and we don’t get in your face and put ourselves out as a target.
We believe in free will and you have a choice to join us or not.
“A Catholic has many things they feel compelled to do, that seem to be tied to their relationship with God and their salvation. Church attendance, confession, baptism, communion are all very important. I don’t presume that a Catholic who fails to meet those obligations would be at risk for eternal damnation, I suppose a learned Catholic here could enlighten me on that point.”
You perceive the question wrongly. Is confession a burden? Is attending mass a burden? Is praying to Christ a burden? Are the sacraments a burden?
We do these things not because we must or because we are compelled to do so, but because it’s like the courship between a husband and a wife. We love Christ, we want to spend time with him.
“Is there anything we lose in eternity because of our choice of denomination, from a Catholic perspective?”
I’ve been on both sides of the aisle. Protestantism to me is an idea, a concept, so to speak. Catholicism is a way of life. We believe that there is only one Christ and he is the head of His Church, and he calls us all to be in bodily communion with one another. I couldn’t justify my dissention, so I joined up.
I certainly think that there are great "helps" in the sacraments. After all, we hold them to be a kind of earnest money of the kingdom - true foretastes. Whether and how they relate to our, ahem, final destination is less clear to me. But when it comes to encouragement and lots of other helps, the gifts of what seem to outsiders (and to too many Catholics) like painful onerous duties are so real as to be remarkable. My thinking did not change all THAT much when I became a Catholic. My experience of blessings has changed remarkably.
Evangelism. Um, What do you think some of us are doing here? I trust in the power of the Truth. So I am not very inclined to try to ram my views down somebody else's throat. I do like clear conversation, and also I think that when people gather together with the serious purpose of ascertaining and articulating even some small fragment of the Truth, then they are joined willy-nilly in the worship of Christ, who is THE Truth through whom all truths are true.
Our experience in the US has been that often it has been said that one could not be Catholic and be a REAL American. It has even been said here on FR. And whether or not we are as loving as we should be, we do seem to face a lot of irrational opposition and inexplicable hatred. I don't think the Klan went after Episcopalians. And just as Anglicans and Catholics were martyred together in Uganda, we have often worked with Protestants to evangelize the unchurched.
Yes, there are lots of stories of Preotestants who once were Catholic, but there are also conversions the other way. And a lot of those seem to have been prompted by efforts which were not evangelism as such, but which had an evangelical effect.
I hope this is a useful response.
As someone who is no longer Catholic, I don't claim to speak from a truly Catholic point of view but I'll do my best. Historically, Catholics and Protestants define salvation a little differently. Where Protestants often talk about salvation to refer to the moment when one has accepted and placed his or her Faith in Jesus Christ, Catholics see salvation as a combination of that (which is termed "justification") and sanctification. Protestants believe in sanctification as well, we don't necessarily consider it as part of the salvation process itself. Catholics do.
The sanctification process involves living one's life in such a way so as to be enriched by the Grace of God. One is obviously enriched through things that Protestants do - through prayer, through reading the Scriptures, through attending worship, through doing good deeds, through self-denial, etc. The most significant way in which one encounters and is enriched by God's Grace is through the Sacraments, which are basically physical manifestations of God's Grace. The more grace one receives in life, the more saintlike one becomes and the more blessed one is in the life hereafter. The only Protestant sacrament that Catholics believe to be valid is baptism, so from a Catholic point of view we are denied very essential spiritual food. This is all contrasted with a Protestant view which views sanctification as coming purely by the grace of God through Faith.
In addition, there is also the question of Purgatory. Purgatory is basically a state of purification that one goes through before one is admitted into Heaven, as those with even a speck of sin are not admitted into the heavenly gates. This is tied together with sanctification and is actually where indulgences come in. Indulgences are basically tied to prayers and good works and are basically a recognition that the temporal price of sin that would have otherwise had to have been paid in purgatory has actually been paid here on earth, either by one's self or by another person on behalf of one's self. It ties into another way by which one is sanctified in order to take that final step into heaven (and everyone in purgatory eventually goes to heaven). As Protestants, the fact that we do not believe in indulgences translates into a lack of willingness to pursue them, which means that, according to Catholic teaching, even if we are saved we will still most likely spend a considerable period of time in that state (I use the term "time" loosely, as time does not exist there in the conventional sense).
So, yes, if the Catholic Church is correct then there is quite a bit we are missing out on and Catholic efforts to bring us back into their fold are certainly well-intentioned, if perhaps at times lacking in charity. Protestants often are found lacking in that regard as well.
Please don't take anything I say here as intended to be insulting. I am only anzswering your questions.
I would not presume to judge the eternal destiny of anyone at all. That's God's job alone. However, it seems there are some objective norms that should be followed, even if those norms can admit to "exceptions."
If Jesus established auricular confession as the ordinary means of seculring God's forgiveness of sin, then it is to be followed, certainly as a norm. As it is, the Church has taught that "perfect contrition" for sin, even outside of confession, can suffice, particularly when the circumstances allow for no alternative at the present time for the person (e.g.: imminent chance of death, no priest available). In other words, there is an "exception" to the standard. But the standard remains, nevertheless, and, should one find himself out of danger, he should avail himself of recourse to that standard means. Issues regarding other Catholic practices and Sacraments, such as the Eucharist, have similar considerations regarding objective "norms" and the subjective "good intentions" of non-Catholic/Orthodox Christians.
This sort of approach applies in full vigor to Catholics (and Orthodox, of cousre), since these things are available to them. Objectively, it applies to every Christian, but there is a subjective component of complete lack of availability - through invincible ignorance, sheer denial of the requirement based on insufficient understanding, etc. - that we believe God takes into account.
But, at this point the question becomes: "well, if there's this subjective component involved, I don't really need these Catholic trappings, right?" I would say that is an entirely incorrect stance to take, from a Catholic POV.
First of all, we Catholics believe that Sacraments are vehicles for God's grace. In fact, they are the primary means through which He dispenses His sanctifying grace, without which no one can be saved. If He dispenses sanctifying grace through other means, He is certainly free to do so. He is God, and, as the old saying goes, "God is the Author of the Sacraments, but He is not bound by them." Fair enough. But He has not been all that explicit about how He does this outside of the Sacraments, too. It is therefore a much more vague and tentative proposition for a Christian to be in receipt of snctifying grace outside of the Sacraments, even while the possibility is acknowledged.
Second, without the "assurance" of forgiveness of sin through sacramental confession of sins, or the relative assurance that, in the present here-and-now one is objectively in a state of sanctifying grace, and that one is capable of receiving further grace through the worthy reception of the Eucharist, or, as circumstances allow, another Sacrament, one can presume very much regarding how his soul stacks up from God's POV. We reject the notion that one attains salvation in some discrete moment and cannot possibly lose it afterward. This applies to every Christian, not just Catholics, from our POV. So, it is something of a dangerous proposition to go through life - especially in these times fraught with unprecedented temptations to sin - without the assurances of grace through the vehicles that God has appointed for dispensing that grace. It would be very difficult indeed for a Christian to pull himself all the way through a lifetime in any part of the Christian Era without the assured dispensing of His sanctifying grace; it is doubly hard today, no doubt. Therefore, while we don't deny that God "can find a way" to save non-Catholics who do not and cannot receive sacramental grace, we clearly believe is it far more advantageous, and far less speculative, if one can go through life with the "ordinary means" at his disposal.
Which brings me to a third point. As I said earlier, everyone must die in a state of grace (put simply, without mortal sin - or "deadly" sin, as described in 1John 5:16-17 - in order to enter Heaven. The "mortal" designation refers to the "spiritual death" of damnation for those who die their physical death while in that state of sin. None of us who has lived past the age of reason (generally understood to be around 7 years of age) goes through life free of sin. All of us need forgiveness. If we don't secure it by the normative means that Christ established in confession and/or the anointing James speaks of in James 5:14-15 (or even baptism itself, should we subsequently not sin again, and die in its grace, though this would be a rare occurence unless one old enough to be responsible for his actions is baptized immediately before death), then there is nothing left except to try to make what we Catholics call a "perfect act of contrition." But, that is a very hard thing to do. The contrition is based entirely on sorrow for offending God because of Who He is, and not in any part out of fear of Hell and punishment. Most people approach confession with "imperfect contrition," with perhaps an admixture of sorrow based on repentance for offending God per se, and also fear of punishment. The normative nature of the Sacrament obtains forgiveness anyway. But, in its absence, one must meet a stricter standard, if you will. It is not God's fault that one finds himself at death's door and has not availed himself of the means that God Himself has established.
As I said, this type of contrition is very difficult. It must be based on sorrow for offending God alone, and even all attachment to sin must be abandoned. That, too, is very hard. So, from a Catholic POV, it is a far riskier and more speculative proposition to suppose that non-Catholics, who have never received the normative means of sanctifying grace outside of baptism, should presume to be in a state of grace at death. If they are not, they cannot be saved by definition, per 1 John 5, as above.
So, to summarize an answer to your question, based on considerations I've just stated, I would say that, while it is possible for non-Catholic Christians to be saved - because nothing is impossible with God - the normative means of forgiveness and grace He established are still vitally important, for they provide a moral assurance that we have been forgiven, are receiving His grace through worthy reception of His Sacraments, and have a much better "shot" at a favorable judgment if we die availing ourselves of those means, or recently availing ourselves of them and committing no subsequent, serious sin.
Our bottom-line is: yes, maybe you will die in a state of grace, but, unless God delivers sanctifying grace to your soul and you die truly and perfectly contrite, you will not. And, outside His own established "norms," how will you know?
Finally, I would just say that your question: "Is there anything we lose in eternity because of our choice of denomination, from a Catholic perspective" is simply too speculative. If anyone gets to Heaven at all, it is because of the mercy and grace of God. Their reward will be based on their relative love of God in this life, and how that motivated them, through His grace, to serve Him faithfully. I don't doubt for a second that some non-Catholic Christians are in Heaven, and that some of them are in a higher state of blessedness and happiness than some Catholics. But, again, it's so much harder to get there in the first place for non-Catholics deprived of the Sacraments, from a Catholic POV. Therefore, to answer what you ask next: "Does the choice matter," I would say: yes, it certainly does.
Again, I apologize if this seems offensive somehow. I suppose that it could easily be misconstrued that way, but that is sincerely not my intention. I am only answering your question regarding how we Catholics still allow for the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics, in spite of what we say regarding the Sacraments and their necessity.
The reason for evangelizing non-Catholic Christians to be Catholics is to give to them the many sacramental opportunities for sanctifying grace that facilitate one's quest for heaven. By analogy, there are superbly athletic 25-year-olds who play baseball or football very well. There are a smaller percentage who are 35 years-old and play as well. All in all, it is helpful but neither sufficient nor necessary to be 25 years old rather than 35 if you want to start for the Yankees or your own favorite team.
If you make heaven, there seems no rational reason, based on your denomination alone why God who judged you worthy would penalize you for succeeding on the tougher path (the one with far less in the way of sanctifying grace).
Therefore, Catholics should work harder to bring you into the fold to ease your path to heaven through sanctifying grace available through the sacraments. If we fail, you may well see heaven anyways just as many of us Catholics do not.
The Catholic Baltimore Catechism on which I was raised starts with the following:
Q. Who Made us? A. God made us.
Q. Why did God make us? A. God made us to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world and to be happy forever with Him in the next.
You can fulfill God's purposes without being a Catholic and many do. It is simply easier with the sanctifying graces that are available through His sacraments. The Mass is very important as well. That Christ wept in the Garden at Gethsemane over the fact that His flock would not be as one must inevitably mean that some of His flock would be of differing persuasions than others while still being OF His flock and not just that He would prefer it to be otherwise. He grants us free will and then judges our use of that free will.
The most Christian person I have ever known was my mother's best friend Hilda. Hilda was an old school Methodist (no liquor, no caffeine, no card-playing, no dancing, etc.) and believed in all that was entailed by that description. She suffered greatly in many ways via the misbehavior of family members. She never lost her absolute love for God, her sunny disposition, nor her passionate Christian charity, nor her dedication to Scripture, nor her heroic ability to turn the other cheek, nor her love for us who did not share the precise details of her faith. If I do make it to heaven and do not find Hilda there, I will be very confused. I am certainly not worthy to have known her. I thank God for the fact that I did.