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Modernism and the Magisterium
gkupsidedown.blogspot.com ^ | Monday, November 23, 2009 | Fr. Longenecker

Posted on 11/23/2009 9:20:18 PM PST by GonzoII

Modernism and the Magisterium


After analyzing the modernism in the Anglican Church it was pointed out that there's plenty of modernism in the Catholic Church too. True enough, and because blog posts should be short and punchy, I left this issue for another day.

It is true that all the problems I outlined in the post on Modernism in the Anglican Church are present in the Catholic Church. In many ways the effects have been even more devastating. At least the Anglicans with their good taste have preserved beautiful liturgy, architecture and sacred music in the midst of the modernism. Many Catholics have been even more gung ho on the dumbing down of Christianity, the vulgarization of the liturgy, art and architecture that is the philosophical offspring of modernism. The moral crisis among Catholic clergy which has caused so much pain and scandal is the direct effect of mixing clerical celibacy (which modernists simply cannot understand) with modernism and the moral relativism of the sexual revolution. The resulting cocktail was disastrously poisonous.

However, there are two distinct differences in the circumstances of Anglicanism and Catholicism. The first is that, while the Catholics have fallen into the same moral morass as Anglicanism, what they are doing has not been condoned and sanctioned by the Church. Yes, there are Catholic homosexual priests, Catholic bishops and priests and people who support women's ordination, Catholic people who favor abortion, remarriage after divorce etc. etc. The Church teaching, however, is clear and uncompromising. So in the Catholic Church you find Church teaching which is firm and clear and traditional, but some Catholics dissent and have their own opinion which is liberal. In the Anglican Church is is virtually the reverse: the Church teaching is either non existent, open ended or actually sanctions the modernist stance but you have individual Anglicans who choose to hold to the traditional, historic faith.

The second fact, on which the first is built is that while Catholics are besieged by modernism, we still have the magisterium of the Church which repudiates modernism and offers the guide for authentic historic Christianity in the world today. We have a Catechism which states the church's teaching clearly and positively. The Popes hold the line, defending, defining and teaching the faith in the face of modernism, and in opposition to it. The fact of the matter is that the Catholic Church defends historic Christianity and those of the faithful who go adrift do so knowingly. They are sheep who have strayed from the fold and from the Good Shepherd.

Individual Anglicans, on the other hand, are sheep without a shepherd. Without a clear authority structure they must make up their own minds, and while there is certainly some value in such independence of mind and action, it must be said that if one is going on a journey it would be possible to wander to the destination asking directions along the way, but it would be more sensible to use a map.

This brings me to the accusation that many non-Catholics make about Catholics: that we are unthinking zombie clones who are drinking the Kool-Aid and marching in lock step behind the Master. To be sure there are some Catholics who switch off their brains (as do many modernists) but this is not the expectation or the ideal. What is the proper relationship to dogma and infallible authority? It must be that the dogma, the moral code and the infallible authority are means to an end--they are not the end in themselves.

For a Catholic the dogma and the moral code which is given by the infallible authority of the Church is simply the ladder on which we climb. They are the map for the journey; the signposts on the way. They are vitally important, but it is the pilgrimage to heaven which is most important, and the final goal in this life is to get to the point where we walk on this pilgrimage so formed and guided by the dogmas and moral code that we no longer rely on them. We have learned to run on the path of God's perfection with the perfect delight of love, doing all those things which were once burdensome with the simplicity of freedom and the beauty of holiness.


TOPICS: Catholic; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: anglican; catholic; frlongenecker; modernism
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To: Steelfish
The supreme sacrifice of the Son of Man on the Cross brought forth for the ages the Holy Eucharist, the bloodless sacrifice at the Catholic Mass.

I recommend you read Romans, Hebrews, Peter & Jude.

He died to sin once for all
SEE Rom. 6:10; Heb. 7:27; 9:12; 10:10; 1 Pet. 3:18; Jude 1:3, 5
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
21 posted on 11/24/2009 10:01:57 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Quix; Alamo-Girl; markomalley; Steelfish; Amityschild; Blogger; Brad's Gramma; Cvengr; DvdMom; ...
Actually, I find a lot of evidence in the New Testament and certainly from my experience that more than suggests God has a strong hostility to efforts to reduce TOUCHING HIM, TOUCHING HIS HEART, FACILITATING HIS PRESENCE. . . . BY . . . RITUAL.

Well, if you define"ritual" thataway, then of course it would be a horrific thing.

Problem is, I do not believe that's how the Roman Catholic Church understands "ritual." The Church and you seem to be operating under two entirely different definitions of what the word "ritual" denotes and means.

Maybe we should try to clarify our definitions before we press on?

Anyhoot, I strongly sympathize with the statement

RE: Today’s Catholic Mass in the stock-in-trade neighborhood parish is banal, drained of its richness, sacred music, and rituals. . . . Tens of thousands (myself included) now find it hard to attend Mass and experience the Divine.

Indeed. One is put in the extraordinary position of being in communion with the Roman Catholic Church, but of not being in communion with the American Catholic Church. Most distressing....

I truly appreciate your eloquent witness, dear brother in Christ! But I still think we need to work on the idea of "ritual" a bit more before we pass judgment on co-religionists (no matter how seemingly remote they are to us).

In Christ's Love and Peace!

22 posted on 11/24/2009 10:03:48 AM PST by betty boop (Without God man neither knows which way to go, nor even understands who he is. —Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
but I find it strange and ironic that a Catholic is attacking metaphor when the Catholic Church has exalted metaphor over literal meaning for two thousand years, to the point that nowadays its clergy, theologians, and laity more often than not dismiss the "old testament" as "mythology."

I will certainly acknowledge that SOME Catholic clergymen have taken to dismissing things as myths and metaphors (as have a good many Protestant clergymen and Jewish rabbis). However, the Church has NEVER taught this infallibly.

Come on now, you don't interpret Genesis literally. Admit it.

Are you calling me a liar? Please show me a single post that I have made since I've been here where I have EVER suggested that I don't accept Genesis literally.

The ONLY thing that I have ever questioned in the first chapter of Genesis was whether the first three days MAY have been longer than a standard twenty four hour day. Light was made in Genesis 1:3 and then in Genesis 1:16 lights were made to rule the day and the night. Without the Sun to orbit it would not have been necessary to confine those first days to twenty four hour segments. But I am perfectly comfortable accepting Genesis at the most literal level.

23 posted on 11/24/2009 10:05:47 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: UriÂ’el-2012

Are you unwilling to answer my questions?


24 posted on 11/24/2009 10:07:10 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Zionist Conspirator; wagglebee
This is in no way an apologia for Uriel, with whom I disagree profoundly, but I find it strange and ironic that a Catholic is attacking metaphor when the Catholic Church has exalted metaphor over literal meaning for two thousand years, to the point that nowadays its clergy, theologians, and laity more often than not dismiss the "old testament" as "mythology."

The Roman church does not understand Metaphor.

They use allegory and thus create what ever they wish.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
25 posted on 11/24/2009 10:07:21 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: wagglebee
Are you unwilling to answer my questions?

Your questions are not germane.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
26 posted on 11/24/2009 10:09:41 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriÂ’el-2012; Zionist Conspirator; Steelfish; markomalley; Petronski
The Roman church does not understand Metaphor.

That is your opinion, nothing more.

They use allegory and thus create what ever they wish.

What are you referring to?

Do you mean the Holy Trinity? It is not just Catholics that believe in the Trinity, the Orthodox and nearly all Protestants do as well.

27 posted on 11/24/2009 10:10:28 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: UriÂ’el-2012; Zionist Conspirator; Steelfish; markomalley; Petronski
Your questions are not germane.

You suggested that a burnt offering was a metaphor. I simply asked you some questions for clarification.

28 posted on 11/24/2009 10:11:50 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
Read Augustine to understand allegory.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

29 posted on 11/24/2009 10:12:18 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriÂ’el-2012; Steelfish; markomalley; Petronski
Read Augustine to understand allegory.

Are you suggesting that Saint Augustine denied the Holy Trinity?

30 posted on 11/24/2009 10:13:45 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
The ONLY thing that I have ever questioned in the first chapter of Genesis was whether the first three days MAY have been longer than a standard twenty four hour day. Light was made in Genesis 1:3 and then in Genesis 1:16 lights were made to rule the day and the night. Without the Sun to orbit it would not have been necessary to confine those first days to twenty four hour segments. But I am perfectly comfortable accepting Genesis at the most literal level.

If this is so, then I am glad to hear it. Unfortunately, I still don't see too many Catholic inerrantists standing up to their much louder and more numerous brethren, either on FR or offline.

31 posted on 11/24/2009 10:15:03 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Vayachalom vehinneh sullam mutztzav 'artzah, vero'sho maggia` hashamaymah . . .)
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To: UriÂ’el-2012
Since you dismiss pages and pages of Torah commandments pertaining to qorbanot, you're one to talk.

Unfortunately, as I have learned in the past, there is absolutely no need trying to reason with you. You assume J*sus is the messiah and chr*stianity is true at the outset and then proceed to impose it onto the Hebrew Bible.

32 posted on 11/24/2009 10:18:25 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Vayachalom vehinneh sullam mutztzav 'artzah, vero'sho maggia` hashamaymah . . .)
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To: wagglebee
U-2012>Your questions are not germane.

You suggested that a burnt offering was a metaphor. I simply asked you some questions for clarification.

Now that question is germane.
NAU Hosea 6:6 For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice,
And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.
YHvH wants us to be loyal to Him, not just do sacrifices.
NAsbU John 14:15 "If you love Me,
you will keep My commandments.

YHvH wants us to Know Him not just burn sacrifices
( or any other pro forma ritual ) without meaning.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
33 posted on 11/24/2009 10:22:45 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Since you dismiss pages and pages of Torah commandments pertaining to qorbanot, you're one to talk.

Did YHvH permit the destruction of the Temple ?

Did all Temple worship end in 70 CE ?

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
34 posted on 11/24/2009 10:27:27 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriÂ’el-2012; Steelfish; markomalley; Petronski
NAsbU John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

YHvH wants us to Know Him not just burn sacrifices ( or any other pro forma ritual ) without meaning.

Correct, He commands us to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. However, the secularists (Protestants) have dismissed that as a metaphor.

35 posted on 11/24/2009 10:34:37 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: UriÂ’el-2012
Did YHvH permit the destruction of the Temple?
Did all Temple worship end in 70 CE ?

And did HaShem permit the destruction of the Temple by the Babylonians centuries before that? Did Temple worship end at that time as well? Wow. I guess the messiah came a long, long time ago.

If you were to ever read the Torah you would see that it warns numerous times that apostasy from the Torah (not "rejecting the messiah") would be punished by exile. Exile implied the non-existence of Temple worship. However, it also promised that in the end Israel would be returned to its land (hence the resumption of Temple worship).

I don't suppose you ever noticed that there were periods during the forty years in the midbar when the sacrificial service wasn't performed?

36 posted on 11/24/2009 10:43:02 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Vayachalom vehinneh sullam mutztzav 'artzah, vero'sho maggia` hashamaymah . . .)
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To: wagglebee; Steelfish; markomalley
U-2912>NAsbU John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

YHvH wants us to Know Him not just burn sacrifices ( or any other pro forma ritual ) without meaning.

Correct, He commands us to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. However, the secularists (Protestants) have dismissed that as a metaphor.

Can you point to a commandment beyond a new metaphor in celebrating Pesach.

The wine of Cana replaced the water of purification of Numbers 19.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
37 posted on 11/24/2009 10:44:15 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: wagglebee

Some folks dismiss the Blessed Trinity as false as well.

And we’re supposed to take THEM seriously.


38 posted on 11/24/2009 10:46:49 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: UriÂ’el-2012
Can you point to a commandment beyond a new metaphor in celebrating Pesach.

The Gospel of St. John, chapter 6

39 posted on 11/24/2009 10:47:45 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: UriÂ’el-2012; Zionist Conspirator; Steelfish; markomalley; Petronski
Can you point to a commandment beyond a new metaphor in celebrating Pesach.

Are you now suggesting that the Passover is a metaphor?

The wine of Cana replaced the water of purification of Numbers 19.

What does this have Discourse on the Bread of Life in John 6?

40 posted on 11/24/2009 10:50:45 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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