Modernism and the Magisterium

gkupsidedown.blogspot.com ^ | Monday, November 23, 2009 | Fr. Longenecker

[Uri’el-2012]

The supreme sacrifice of the Son of Man on the Cross brought forth for the ages the Holy Eucharist, the bloodless sacrifice at the Catholic Mass.

I recommend you read Romans, Hebrews, Peter & Jude.

He died to sin once for all

SEE Rom. 6:10; Heb. 7:27; 9:12; 10:10; 1 Pet. 3:18; Jude 1:3, 5

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[betty boop]

Actually, I find a lot of evidence in the New Testament and certainly from my experience that more than suggests God has a strong hostility to efforts to reduce TOUCHING HIM, TOUCHING HIS HEART, FACILITATING HIS PRESENCE. . . . BY . . . RITUAL.

Well, if you define"ritual" thataway, then of course it would be a horrific thing.

Problem is, I do not believe that's how the Roman Catholic Church understands "ritual." The Church and you seem to be operating under two entirely different definitions of what the word "ritual" denotes and means.

Maybe we should try to clarify our definitions before we press on?

Anyhoot, I strongly sympathize with the statement

RE: Today’s Catholic Mass in the stock-in-trade neighborhood parish is banal, drained of its richness, sacred music, and rituals. . . . Tens of thousands (myself included) now find it hard to attend Mass and experience the Divine.

Indeed. One is put in the extraordinary position of being in communion with the Roman Catholic Church, but of not being in communion with the American Catholic Church. Most distressing....

I truly appreciate your eloquent witness, dear brother in Christ! But I still think we need to work on the idea of "ritual" a bit more before we pass judgment on co-religionists (no matter how seemingly remote they are to us).

In Christ's Love and Peace!

[wagglebee]

but I find it strange and ironic that a Catholic is attacking metaphor when the Catholic Church has exalted metaphor over literal meaning for two thousand years, to the point that nowadays its clergy, theologians, and laity more often than not dismiss the "old testament" as "mythology."

I will certainly acknowledge that SOME Catholic clergymen have taken to dismissing things as myths and metaphors (as have a good many Protestant clergymen and Jewish rabbis). However, the Church has NEVER taught this infallibly.

Come on now, you don't interpret Genesis literally. Admit it.

Are you calling me a liar? Please show me a single post that I have made since I've been here where I have EVER suggested that I don't accept Genesis literally.

The ONLY thing that I have ever questioned in the first chapter of Genesis was whether the first three days MAY have been longer than a standard twenty four hour day. Light was made in Genesis 1:3 and then in Genesis 1:16 lights were made to rule the day and the night. Without the Sun to orbit it would not have been necessary to confine those first days to twenty four hour segments. But I am perfectly comfortable accepting Genesis at the most literal level.

[wagglebee]

Are you unwilling to answer my questions?

[Uri’el-2012]

This is in no way an apologia for Uriel, with whom I disagree profoundly, but I find it strange and ironic that a Catholic is attacking metaphor when the Catholic Church has exalted metaphor over literal meaning for two thousand years, to the point that nowadays its clergy, theologians, and laity more often than not dismiss the "old testament" as "mythology."

The Roman church does not understand Metaphor.

They use allegory and thus create what ever they wish.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[Uri’el-2012]

Are you unwilling to answer my questions?

Your questions are not germane.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[wagglebee]

The Roman church does not understand Metaphor.

That is your opinion, nothing more.

They use allegory and thus create what ever they wish.

What are you referring to?

Do you mean the Holy Trinity? It is not just Catholics that believe in the Trinity, the Orthodox and nearly all Protestants do as well.

[wagglebee]

Your questions are not germane.

You suggested that a burnt offering was a metaphor. I simply asked you some questions for clarification.

[Uri’el-2012]

Read Augustine to understand allegory.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[wagglebee]

Read Augustine to understand allegory.

Are you suggesting that Saint Augustine denied the Holy Trinity?

[Zionist Conspirator]

The ONLY thing that I have ever questioned in the first chapter of Genesis was whether the first three days MAY have been longer than a standard twenty four hour day. Light was made in Genesis 1:3 and then in Genesis 1:16 lights were made to rule the day and the night. Without the Sun to orbit it would not have been necessary to confine those first days to twenty four hour segments. But I am perfectly comfortable accepting Genesis at the most literal level.

If this is so, then I am glad to hear it. Unfortunately, I still don't see too many Catholic inerrantists standing up to their much louder and more numerous brethren, either on FR or offline.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Since you dismiss pages and pages of Torah commandments pertaining to qorbanot, you're one to talk.

Unfortunately, as I have learned in the past, there is absolutely no need trying to reason with you. You assume J*sus is the messiah and chr*stianity is true at the outset and then proceed to impose it onto the Hebrew Bible.

[Uri’el-2012]

U-2012>Your questions are not germane.

You suggested that a burnt offering was a metaphor. I simply asked you some questions for clarification.

Now that question is germane.

NAU Hosea 6:6 For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice,
And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

YHvH wants us to be loyal to Him, not just do sacrifices.

NAsbU John 14:15 "If you love Me,
you will keep My commandments.

YHvH wants us to Know Him not just burn sacrifices
( or any other pro forma ritual ) without meaning.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[Uri’el-2012]

Since you dismiss pages and pages of Torah commandments pertaining to qorbanot, you're one to talk.

Did YHvH permit the destruction of the Temple ?

Did all Temple worship end in 70 CE ?

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[wagglebee]

NAsbU John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

YHvH wants us to Know Him not just burn sacrifices ( or any other pro forma ritual ) without meaning.

Correct, He commands us to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. However, the secularists (Protestants) have dismissed that as a metaphor.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Did YHvH permit the destruction of the Temple?
Did all Temple worship end in 70 CE ?

And did HaShem permit the destruction of the Temple by the Babylonians centuries before that? Did Temple worship end at that time as well? Wow. I guess the messiah came a long, long time ago.

If you were to ever read the Torah you would see that it warns numerous times that apostasy from the Torah (not "rejecting the messiah") would be punished by exile. Exile implied the non-existence of Temple worship. However, it also promised that in the end Israel would be returned to its land (hence the resumption of Temple worship).

I don't suppose you ever noticed that there were periods during the forty years in the midbar when the sacrificial service wasn't performed?

[Uri’el-2012]

U-2912>NAsbU John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

YHvH wants us to Know Him not just burn sacrifices ( or any other pro forma ritual ) without meaning.

Correct, He commands us to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. However, the secularists (Protestants) have dismissed that as a metaphor.

Can you point to a commandment beyond a new metaphor in celebrating Pesach.

The wine of Cana replaced the water of purification of Numbers 19.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[Petronski]

Some folks dismiss the Blessed Trinity as false as well.

And we’re supposed to take THEM seriously.

[Petronski]

Can you point to a commandment beyond a new metaphor in celebrating Pesach.

The Gospel of St. John, chapter 6

[wagglebee]

Can you point to a commandment beyond a new metaphor in celebrating Pesach.

Are you now suggesting that the Passover is a metaphor?

The wine of Cana replaced the water of purification of Numbers 19.

What does this have Discourse on the Bread of Life in John 6?