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To: Diego1618
By this logic you are saying that He was buried before the Sabbath (Feast of Unleavened Bread which is the 1st of 2 Sabbaths) and then Friday comes and goes and the women return "on the first of the Sabbaths, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, bearing the spices they made ready, and certain {others} with them.

I'm trying to understand this but I feel like laughing when you guys tell me (and others) that it is a stretch for our views to work and yet you are trying to make sense of a verse that you say is translated as:

After the Sabbath they returned to the tomb before the first of Sabbaths began.

Why would they phrase it like this or even attempt to do so when it makes no sense at all?

You can not say --- after the first, the first began.

Especially when, as Diego said, this is not a count down to Pentecost (which I think is a possibility). I would have to say that it would be phrased telling us that the 1st Sabbath ended and the next was about to begin. It doesn't make any attempt at this and that makes me question it.

Also, my number of days (1st of Sabbath, 2nd of Sabbath (in numbering days of the week was referenced by Lightfoot and you can also find it in the Siddur [it is Jewish culture and you should know this]). None the less I think this study is interesting and I commend you on the time and effort you have put into it. I just think there are many questions still remaining. I have read over other theories as well that back up, from a Jewish perspective, the Friday-Sun resurrection as well as Thursday - Sunday. Everybody has good solid study put into it but in the end it may be just as His birth was. We know it happened but we don't exactly know when. Being okay with not knowing every aspect of every little detail and having complete comfort and faith in it is a Hebrew mindset. Needing every little detail answered before you are okay with it is a Greek mindset. I've been working very hard to continue with seeing things in a Hebrew mindset, I'm not willing to go back to the Greek way of thinking.

Here are some studies to look at:

http://tikvatdavid.com/Tikvat_David/Torah_Learning_files/Passover%20and%20Yeshua%27s%20Crucifixion.pdf

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/3157

Jay

53 posted on 11/03/2009 10:36:01 AM PST by Achi
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To: Achi
By this logic you are saying that He was buried before the Sabbath (Feast of Unleavened Bread which is the 1st of 2 Sabbaths) and then Friday comes and goes and the women return "on the first of the Sabbaths, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, bearing the spices they made ready, and certain {others} with them.

Crucifixion week was also the beginning of Passover and "The Days of Unleavened Bread." Passover preparation began on Tuesday night and lasted until Wednesday at sunset. This 24 hour period was the 14th of Nisan [Leviticus 23:5]. During this 24 hours The Lord and His disciples celebrated a "Last Supper" together during the night period which also saw Judas leave to betray him to the Sanhedrin; A visit to the Garden of Gethsemane for prayer and fellowship; An arrest by the Chief Priests, scribes and soldiers (this is where the suffering at the hands of mankind begins) [Matthew 16:21][Mark 8:31][Luke 9:22]....the "Heart of the Earth" [Matthew 12:40]; And a visit to the home of the High Priest where a mock trial and physical abuse occurs.

At sunrise of the 14th He is taken to Pilate's residence for interrogation.....on to King Herod and then back to Pilate for further abuse and suffering. He is flogged, bleeding and is given a crown of thorns. It is now late morning of the 14th and He is taken to Golgotha for crucifixion at the 6th hour. He dies as the lambs are being slaughtered (3:00 P.M. "Between the Evenings") in the temple for the upcoming Passover meal which will begin at sunset.

Joseph of Arimethia obtains His body from the stake and entombs him shortly before sunset. The First Sabbath of Unleavened begins and the Passover is now being eaten all over Jerusalem as the sun is setting. This begins the 15th of Nisan [Leviticus 23:6].....and it is now Wednesday night.

If you were to ask any first century Jew what was meant by the phrase "First of the Sabbaths" they would answer, "The first weekly Sabbath between Pesach and Shavuot." They would not say, "The First Sabbath of Unleavened Bread" (although the observance indeed had two Sabbaths). So.... when we say "The first of the Sabbaths" which is the correct Greek translation for [Matthew 28:1][Mark 16:2][Luke 24:1][John 20:1; 20:19][Acts 20:7][I Corinthians 16:2]....we don't mean the First Sabbath of Unleavened Bread [Leviticus 23:6]! We mean the first weekly Sabbath between Passover and Pentecost.

I'm trying to understand this but I feel like laughing when you guys tell me (and others) that it is a stretch for our views to work and yet you are trying to make sense of a verse that you say is translated as: After the Sabbath they returned to the tomb before the first of the Sabbaths began .

It is now evident you are construing the phrase "First of the Sabbaths" incorrectly. It does not mean the first Sabbath of Unleavened.....it means the first of seven Sabbaths between Passover and Pentecost [Leviticus 23:15-16].

Especially when, as Diego said, this is not a count down to Pentecost (which I think is a possibility). I would have to say that it would be phrased telling us that the 1st Sabbath ended and the next was about to begin. It doesn't make any attempt at this and that makes me question it.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here.....or where I said this. You do understand that there was a non Sabbath day in between the Sabbath of Unleavened (Wednesday night/Thursday) and the weekly Sabbath (Friday night/Saturday)....don't you?

You can not say --- after the first, the first began.

I don't believe I've ever said that.

54 posted on 11/03/2009 1:51:14 PM PST by Diego1618 (Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid.......(John Wayne))
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To: Achi
From your suggested article: The First Day of the Week

Not one time does the author use the correct Greek word that is used in all the resurrection texts. I'll list them for you;

[Matthew 28:1] oye de sabbatwn th epifwskoush eiV mian sabbatwn hlqen maria h magdalhnh kai h allh maria qewrhsai ton tafon

[Mark 16:2] kai lian prwi ths mias sabbatwn ercontai epi to mnhmeion anateilantoV tou hliou

[Luke 24:1] th de mia twn sabbatwn orqrou baqeos hlqon epi to mnhma ferousai a htoimasan arwmata kai tines sun autais

[John 20:1] th de mia twn sabbatwn maria h magdalhnh ercetai prwi skotiaV eti oushV eiV to mnhmeion kai blepei ton liqon hrmenon ek tou mnhmeiou

The word the author of your article uses is SABBATON. It doesn't mean the same thing. Here is an example of the correct usage of SABBATON: [Mark 2:27] kai elegen autoiV to sabbaton dia ton anqrwpon egeneto ouc o anqrwpoV dia to sabbaton i.e. "And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath."

MIA TWN SABBATWN does not mean "First Day of the Week". SABBATWN means Sabbaths (plural) and your article does not say "First day of the weeks".

You might write and ask Mr. Lyons why he doesn't use the correct word. I realize people fight tooth and nail to preserve their Sunday heritage.....but to purposely use a word in their article that doesn't even appear in any of the Greek passages......is disingenuous.

55 posted on 11/03/2009 2:24:03 PM PST by Diego1618 (Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid.......(John Wayne))
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