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To: Forest Keeper
Agreed, the U.S. justice system does not match the biblical one in many respects.

In the biblical justice system, the Judge is the one who grants the pardons.

KJV Numbers 14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

In the biblical justice system acquittals are only supposed to be issued to the innocent:

KJV Deuteronomy 25:1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.

KJV Exodus 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

In any event, even with your use of "acquittal" you are forgetting the fact that when an acquittal is rendered then NO ONE pays any price

No, I have not forgotten that.  That's why the the Church teaches two gospels, one false, and one true.  You cannot combine acquittal with the actual payment of the penalty, because you are right, that with an acquittal there is no penalty to be paid!

With the doctrine of "imputed righteousness" or "active obedience" the discovery process is corrupted and changed into a lie.   The "believer" is not found a sinner.  Somehow Justice is blinded.  Logically this leads to no need for a penalty, because the judge is going to find no guilt.  Thus this concept conflicts with the true gospel.

With the true gospel the sinner is found guilty, and in eternity, it will always be a truism that so and so saved person was guilty of sin in the present age.   The difference is that that person repented and Christ paid the penalty for him so he could be pardoned.   But that doesn't change the legal finding of the saved persons guilt.

So the Church teaches two gospels, somewhat mixed up I agree.  The question is which one are you going to believe.

 

49 posted on 10/26/2009 7:12:55 AM PDT by Daniel Gregg (www.torahtimes.org)
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To: Daniel Gregg; topcat54; Lee N. Field; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights; blue-duncan; HarleyD; Alex Murphy; ..
In the biblical justice system, the Judge is the one who grants the pardons.

OK, if you are talking about the Biblical justice system then that is fine and we can go from there.

FK: In any event, even with your use of "acquittal" you are forgetting the fact that when an acquittal is rendered then NO ONE pays any price.

No, I have not forgotten that. That's why the the Church teaches two gospels, one false, and one true. You cannot combine acquittal with the actual payment of the penalty, because you are right, that with an acquittal there is no penalty to be paid! With the doctrine of "imputed righteousness" or "active obedience" the discovery process is corrupted and changed into a lie. The "believer" is not found a sinner. Somehow Justice is blinded. Logically this leads to no need for a penalty, because the judge is going to find no guilt. Thus this concept conflicts with the true gospel. (emphasis added)

I disagree. I am a Reformer and I don't think imputed righteousness means that at all. Imputed righteousness recognizes that there is no righteousness in us, the righteousness that is imputed is 100% that of Christ and none from ourselves. Therefore, there is no finding that we are not sinners. We obviously ARE sinners. The finding is that SINCE we are sinners the only hope we have is if Christ's righteousness is credited to our account. His righteousness alone satisfies the penalty that we owe. We would not owe anything if we were not sinners.

With the true gospel the sinner is found guilty, and in eternity, it will always be a truism that so and so saved person was guilty of sin in the present age. The difference is that that person repented and Christ paid the penalty for him so he could be pardoned. But that doesn't change the legal finding of the saved persons guilt. So the Church teaches two gospels, somewhat mixed up I agree. The question is which one are you going to believe.

From other of your posts I have gathered that you think it is a key point that Reformers, et al., who follow the "false gospel" think that repentance is unnecessary or somehow unimportant. Nothing could be further from the truth. Here are some excerpts from Repentance: According to 2 Corinthians 7:11 - John Calvin --- Institutes of the Christian Religion Vol 3 pages 76-86 . Please forgive the length, but I think this is very important to your apparent position:

.......... 19. REPENTANCE AND FORGIVENESS ARE INTERRELATED b Now if it is true - a fact abundantly clear - b(a) that the whole of the gospel is contained under these two headings, repentance and forgiveness of sins, do we not see that the Lord freely justifies his own in order that he may at the same time restore them to true righteousness by sanctification of his Spirit? a John, a messenger sent before the face of Christ to prepare his ways [ Matthew 11:10], proclaimed: "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven has come near" [ Matthew 3:2; 4:17, Vg.]. By inviting them to repentance, he admonished them to recognize that they were sinners, and their all was condemned before the Lord, that they might with all their hearts desire the mortification of their flesh, and a new rebirth in the Spirit. By proclaiming the Kingdom of God, he was calling them to faith, for by the Kingdom of God, which he taught was at hand, he meant the forgiveness of sins, salvation, life, and utterly everything that we obtain in Christ. Hence we read in the other Evangelists: "John came preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" [ Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3]. What else is this than that they, weighed down and wearied by the burden of sins, should turn to the Lord and conceive a hope of forgiveness and salvation? So, also, Christ entered upon his preaching: "The Kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the gospel" [ Mark 1:15 p.]. First he declares that the treasures of God's mercy have been opened in himself; then he requires repentance; finally, trust in God's promises. Therefore, when he meant to summarize the whole gospel in brief, he said that he "should suffer rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name" [ Luke 24:26, 46-47]. And after his resurrection the apostles preached this: "God raised Jesus…to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins" [ Acts 5:30-31]. Repentance is preached in the name of Christ when, through the teaching of the gospel, men hear that all their thoughts, all their inclinations, all their efforts, are corrupt and vicious. Accordingly, they must be reborn if they would enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Forgiveness of sins is preached when men are taught that for them Christ became redemption, righteousness, b(a) salvation, and life [1 Corinthians 1:30], by whose name they are freely accounted righteous and innocent in God's sight. b Since both kinds of grace are received by faith, as I have elsewhere proved, still, because the proper object of faith is God's goodness, by which sins are forgiven, it was expedient that it should be carefully distinguished from repentance.

20. IN WHAT SENSE IS REPENTANCE THE PRIOR CONDITION OF FORGIVENESS? a Now the hatred of sin, which is the beginning of repentance, first gives us access to the knowledge of Christ, who reveals himself to none but poor and afflicted sinners, who groan, toil, are heavy-laden, hunger, thirst, and pine away with sorrow and misery b(a) [ Isaiah 61:1-3; Matthew 11:5, 28; Luke 4:18]. Accordingly, we must strive toward repentance itself, devote ourselves to it throughout life, and pursue it to the very end if we would abide in Christ. b For he came to call sinners, but it was to repentance [cf. Matthew 9:13]. He was sent to bless the unworthy, but in order that every one may turn from his wickedness [ Acts 3:26; cf. Acts 5:31]. Scripture is full of such testimonies. For this reason, when God offers forgiveness of sins, he usually requires repentance of us in turn, implying that his mercy ought to be a cause for men to repent. He says, "Do judgment and righteousness, for salvation has come near." [ Isaiah 56:1 p.] Again, "A redeemer will come to Zion, and to those in Jacob who repent of their sins." [ Isaiah 59:20.] Again, "Seek the Lord while he can be found, call upon him while he is near; let the wicked man forsake his way and the unrighteousness of his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him." [ Isaiah 55:6-7 p.] Likewise, "Turn again, and repent, that your sins may be blotted out." [ Acts 3:19.] Yet we must note that this condition is not so laid down as if our repentance were the basis of our deserving pardon, but rather, because the Lord has determined to have pity on men to the end that they may repent, he indicates in what direction men should proceed if they wish to obtain grace. Accordingly, so long as we dwell in the prison house of our body we must continually contend with the defects of our corrupt nature, indeed with our own natural soul. a Plato sometimes says that the life of a philosopher is a meditation upon death; but we may more truly say that the life of a Christian man is a continual effort and exercise in the mortification of the flesh, till it is utterly slain, and God's Spirit reigns in us. Therefore, I think he has profited greatly who has learned to be very much displeased with himself, not so as to stick fast in this mire and progress no farther, but rather to hasten to God and yearn for him in order that, having been engrafted into the life and death of Christ, he may give attention to continual repentance. b Truly, they who are held by a real loathing of sin cannot do otherwise. For no one ever hates sin unless he has previously been seized with a love of righteousness. a This thought, as it was the simplest of all, so has it seemed to me to agree best with the truth of Scripture.(Sins for which there is no repentance or pardon, 21-25)

21. REPENTANCE AS GOD'S FREE GIFT e Further, that repentance is a singular gift of God I believe to be so clear from the above teaching that there is no need of a long discourse to explain it. Accordingly, the church praises God's benefit, and marvels that he "granted repentance to the Gentiles unto salvation" [ Acts 11:18, cf. 2 Corinthians 7:10]. And Paul bids Timothy be forbearing and gentle toward unbelievers: If at any time, he says, God may give them repentance to recover from the snares of the devil [ 2 Timothy 2:25- 26]. Indeed, God declares that he wills the conversion of all, and he directs exhortations to all in common. Yet the efficacy of this depends upon the Spirit of regeneration. For it would be easier for us to create men than for us of our own power to put on a more excellent nature. Accordingly, in the whole course of regeneration, we are with good reason called "God's handiwork, created… for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" [ Ephesians 2:10, cf. Vg.]. Whomsoever God wills to snatch from death, he quickens by the Spirit of regeneration. Not that repentance, properly speaking, is the cause of salvation, but because it is already seen to be inseparable from faith and from God's mercy, when, as Isaiah testifies, "a redeemer will come to Zion, and to those in Jacob who turn back from iniquity" [ Isaiah 59:20].

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So Reformers see repentance as important and necessary, a part of faith, and a gift from God. No Reformer I know would say that one could have true faith without repentance. I don't know anyone who would subscribe to what you call the false gospel.

63 posted on 10/26/2009 4:31:22 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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